Zimmerman/Martin shooting

Quote:
"So, what can we learn from this?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhoo...ry?id=15949879

What could Mr. Zimmerman have done differently?

I'm thinking:

a) stay on phone with dispatch until PD arrives, providing description and location

b) carry a less-than-lethal option, like OC spray".

Based on what I've read, if indeed those are the facts, Mr. Zimmerman is - or deserves to be - in deep doo-doo.

Years ago, when I was a young, clean cut college student, I was walking home. Some "neighborhood watchman" cop wannabe stopped me and demanded to see my ID. Had he been a bona fide police officer I'd have identified myself in a new york minute. But he wasn't. In my opinion, no citizen has the right to do what he did or what Mr. Zimmerman did, unless there's a lot more to the story. Assuming (big if) these ARE the facts, I only regret that the local authorities have now let this spin out of control.

V

Yep, if we can assume that Treyvon Martin was unarmed (and everybody agrees that he was unarmed) ... George Zimmerman is an unqualified idiot. Add to that the fact that he escalated the situation needlessly and you've got a stupid situation that is bad for everyone involved, including law-abiding CHL holders.

Two things: 1) A young kid is dead, pretty needlessly it seems. 2) The gun control wackadoos are already milking this for all it's worth. The DA in whatever Florida county needs to indict Zimmerman and get the show on the road.

I don't think we can learn very much from the status quo right now, unless something has come up in the case that I'm not familiar with. There are certainly a lot of questions being asked about this particular encounter, and apparently there are reasons for that.

I'd much rather we not extrapolate beyond the available data on this case here in ST&T - that's happening on plenty of other boards already, and we need not add to it. But there are definitely some lessons to be learned, I think. It will just take some more time before those lessons become clear.

I'd rather see existing documentation and new developments in the case posted here than just speculation without any support... the newspapers have been less than stellar in offering clarity on this one IMHO.

Zimmerman 911 call on encountering Martin (2:42)
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...e-Zimmerman-911-call-reporting-Trayvon-Martin

Neighbor 911 call (1:42)
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68870733/News/911-call-Pretty-sure-guy-is-dead

Additional neighbor 911 call (1:44)
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68870683/News/911-call-Guy-on-top-wearing-white

Discussion of the evidence - http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/1...from-shooting-of-teen-in-florida-by-watchman/
-Links to additional 911 calls here

FBI monitoring case - http://wsau.com/news/articles/2012/mar/19/fbi-monitoring-florida-teens-killing-as-police-criticized/

ETA, 3/20/12, 1300: Grand Jury To Investigate - http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...tice-fbi-and.html#disqus_thread#storylink=cpy
Grand jury to probe Trayvon Martin killing
Mounting pressure in Trayvon Martin case succeeds in prompting a federal probe as well as an investigation by a state grand jury.
Miami-Dade
Tuesday, 03.20.12

Totally agree Fred. I haven't even seen everything you posted but everyone seems to be focusing on EVERYTHING BUT the crucial question, whether Zimmerman was reasonably afraid for his life immediately prior to shooting Martin.

The lack of charges would indicate he was, or at least had a more reasonable foundation than is being implied by our absolutely unprofessional, opportunistic, scumbag media outlets. Everyone is just dogpiling onto this rather than giving a level headed legal perspective. I don't expect him to get the kid glove treatment but even "legal experts" are dogpiling without stating to their lay audience what circumstances could reasonably result in this outcome.

The secondary questions, reasonable though they may be - e.g. why/whether he should have followed Martin - are just that, secondary. I have my doubts when it comes to the circumstances surrounding and leading up to the incident, but that doesn't mean, all things considered, it wasn't self-defense. It either was or it wasn't, and a misguided attempt at "profiling" or "deterrence" by a (possible) wannabe cop doesn't change that, unless it was GROSSLY misguided to the point of provoking Taylor a la "lying in wait" or "mutual combat."

As an aside, delete this part of the post if it's off-topic, I'm so sick of the race card aspect of this. We don't know if/whether GZ is racist, and the media tag-line on the case is currently "If a black man shot a white man he would be convicted of murder." This is demonstrably untrue with numerous examples of actual self-defense that could be cited. National journalism is just in the absolute crapper and this case drives that home more than anything I've seen recently.

The audio in George Zimmerman's 911 call starting at 2:00 makes me think he stopped following the kid at some point. Zimmerman says: "He ran." And then starts making plans to meet the cops. There is no increase in breathing or wind noise over the phone to indicate that he started running chasing the kid.

Given that it seems obvious there is a part where zimmerman and the kid met up again. The circumstances of that meeting are what lead to the death of Martin and are crucial in understanding this case.

A case in my own town last fall reminded me that there is a difference between facts and news. I've been following articles on this incident.

Here is what I know: One person shot another.

Afraid for your life may be a justifiable self defense argument, but if you provoked or caused the situation which made you fear for your life and as a result killed someone, then that's a different ball game.

To answer the OPs question about lessons learned:

If your life is not in danger or about to be in dangers, as when someone is kicking down your door, if the cops tell you to stay put, stay put.

While the data is incomplete, as a general rule:
"Don't make somebody else's problem your problem"
seems to apply here.

If you carry, and you get involved in a confrontation, it has the potential to be a gunfight. Who here would choose to be in a gunfight? If one is carrying, one should be just as circumspect about choosing to be in any confrontation.

Fred's right. The FACTS will come out. Otherwise, we get a projective test about folks attitudes about this or that. Not worth it for a quality forum. Plenty of other ranting venues.

I'll just give you the wisdom of Skip Gochenour

ADEE

ADEE stands for:

1.Avoid
2.Disengage/de-escalate
3.Evade
4.Escape

The ADEE model (by Skip Gochenour) is certainly a worthwhile model.

You ain't Batman.

We'll never know all the facts since the only other witness is dead. However it would not be good for Zimmerman, with the few facts we know at present, if I was on the jury.

But even with the little we know for sure at present he appears to have gone looking for trouble, even after the police advised him not to. As far as I am concerned self defense is no longer a factor.

A Seminole County grand jury will investigate -

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...tice-fbi-and.html#disqus_thread#storylink=cpy
Posted on Tuesday, 03.20.12
Grand jury to probe Trayvon Martin killing

The grand jury will go into session Tuesday, April 10, 2012.

=========================================

Martin was reportedly on the phone with friend when Zimmerman approached -

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T2huVREge5I
Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments
March 20, 2012

Comments from THR member Kenn Blanchard, as posted on his blog - http://kennblanchard.com/comments-about-the-florida-shooting

US DOJ opens probe in shooting -
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/u...nquiry-in-killing-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=1
A Florida Law Gets Scrutiny After a Teenager’s Killing
By LIZETTE ALVAREZ
Published: March 20, 2012

Zimmerman "dreamed of being a cop"
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/...erman-trayvon-martin-20120320,0,1508238.story
Trayvon Martin shooting: George Zimmerman dreamed of being a cop
By Rene Lynch
March 20, 2012

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html
Outrage, protests grow over shooting of unarmed Florida teen
By the CNN Wire Staff
updated 5:14 AM EDT, Wed March 21, 2012

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-complicate-trayvon-martin-teen-shooting-case
Florida 'Stand Your Ground' law could complicate Trayvon Martin teen shooting case

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/murder-or-self-defense-florida-case-raises-questions/
Murder or Self-Defense: Florida Case Raises Questions

An older story that might shed some light on the situation -
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pQ0Xgz9R
Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation
Updated: Wednesday, 14 Mar 2012, 3:58 PM EDT
Published : Monday, 27 Feb 2012, 4:55 PM EST

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

===================================

herald.com/2012/03/17/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html
Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops
BY FRANCES ROBLES
[email protected]
Posted on Wednesday, 03.21.12

SANFORD -- The people at the Retreat at Twin Lakes had been missing bikes, grills and a few times thought strangers were casing their town houses.

When the homeowners association wanted to start a neighborhood watch, only one man stepped up: George Zimmerman, the 28-year-old who admitted to shooting an unarmed Miami Gardens teenager and who is now the focal point of a race-related scandal of national proportions.
///snip

Letter from Sanford, FL City Manager (undated, as far as I can see)
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

======================================================
Note- links to the various items listed below are active at the city government site - the FAQ letter is linked above as well (simply because I found that first).
-----------------

ETA 22 Mar 12 1830 The city of Sanford changed their web page since this was posted. Now the link opens to a different index page, with the following information:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Important Notice - Trayvon Martin

Dear Citizens:

There has been a lot of media attention to the recent incident where George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. This is indeed a tragic situation and has caused a flood of questions and strong emotions from within our community, the region and nation. On behalf of the employees of the City of Sanford, Our deepest sympathy and prayers go out to the family and friends of Trayvon Martin. As a father, I can only image the pain Trayvon’s family must be going though. In an effort to continue to be as responsive as possible to the public seeking information on the incident, I have asked Chief Lee to provide answers to some of the most frequently asked questions regarding this matter. Below are his responses. . . Read More . . .

Event Information - Will provide you with up to date information on all the events occurring in Sanford.
Visitor Information - Will help you find lodging, food, and transportation when visiting the City of Sanford.
Trayvon Martin Investigation - Consolidated information with regard to this tragic incident.
Trayvon Martin Investigation
===================

Clicking on the Consolidated Information link or the Trayvon Martin Investigation link at the Index link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) will bring you to the following page. The list of items below are all hotlinked at the city's page, but you'll have to work a bit harder to get to the links now.

911 Calls

In no particular order
Call 1
Call 2
Call 3
Call 4
Call 5
Call 6
Call 7
Call 8
Reports

Twin Lakes Shooting Innitial Report
Retreat Neighborhood Notification
Update 1
Update 2
George Zimmerman 911 Call History
Response to ABC News
The Retreat at Twin Lakes Trespassing Issue
Burglary Reports
Neighborhood Watch Info

Burglary Prevention
Neighborhood Watch Program
Neighborhood Watch Handbook

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/03/23/142918/obama-speaks-on-trayvon-martin.html
Posted on Friday, March 23, 2012
Obama speaks on Trayvon Martin shooting

ETA 23 Mar 10:15 PM
Text of remarks as linked above - http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...y-general-reports-shooting-death-barack-obama

ETA 23 Mar, 8:30 PM
Sanford, FL Police Interview on Trayvon Martin Case, 1:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoKW7dl_dm0&feature=youtu.be

ETA 23 Mar 10:10 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...-sanford-police-investigator-suspicious-death
Trayvon Martin case myths, half truths
7:30 p.m. EST, March 23, 2012

For continuing updates on this case from a regional newspaper, see http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN AND TRAYVON MARTIN: WHAT WE DON’T KNOW
March 23rd, 2012

According to the index at the Gun Blog Black List, this was posted about two hours ago - see http://gunblogblacklist.blogspot.com/ for the list.
=======================================

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/24/Witness-Martin-attacked-Zimmerman
WITNESS SPEAKS: MARTIN ATTACKED ZIMMERMAN

A change of pace from the usual reportage, courtesy of Tamara. Expect the usual lack of PC:
http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2012/03/where-are-they-getting-these-crystal.html
Where are they getting these crystal balls?
===========================

And from pistol-forum.com, a very important question:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread....Florida-incident&p=61334&viewfull=1#post61334
===========================

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...120325_1_abc-news-arizona-iced-tea-joe-oliver
Report: Zimmerman thought "it would all blow over," friend says
9:53 a.m. EST, March 25, 2012
=====================

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/2012/03/hecklers-veto.html
The Heckler's Veto
============

"It's the job of an editorial cartoonist to push the boundaries..."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...oting-tragedy/2012/03/23/gIQAFNE1XS_blog.html
Posted at 12:09 PM ET, 03/24/2012
TRAYVON MARTIN: The 9 Most Striking Cartoons about the Florida shooting tragedy
====================================================

http://takimag.com/article/trayvonnosaurus_rex_jim_goad/print#axzz1qCHPWLoU
Trayvonnosaurus Rex
by Jim Goad
March 26, 2012
==========

More details emerge, a month after the shooting...

http://www.newsmax.com/US/trayvon-m...g/2012/03/26/id/433912?s=al&promo_code=E855-1
Trayvon Martin Death: Police Say Witnesses Back Zimmerman's Story
Monday, 26 Mar 2012 04:06 PM
By Martin Gould

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager
Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head
7:36 p.m. EST, March 26, 2012|
By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...orhood-watch-captain-legal-advisor-joe-oliver
Trayvon Martin case: Friend, lawyer defend shooter George Zimmerman
9:23 a.m. EST, March 26, 2012|
By Amy Pavuk, Orlando Sentinel

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html
Posted on Monday, 03.26.12
TRAYVON MARTIN CASE
Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin
BY FRANCES ROBLES
[email protected]
====================

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...n-timeline-20120326_1_shooting-sanford-police
Timeline: The Trayvon Martin shooting
12:14 p.m. EST, March 26, 2012
======================

Using an overhead view in an attempt to establish movement and times...
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/03/trayvon-martin-basic-geography.html
March 27, 2012
Trayvon Martin - Basic Geography May Cut Against Zimmerman
=========================================

More Rumors and Facts...
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...medical-examiner-releases-bodies-police-force
Trayvon rumors abound, but here are facts
8:08 p.m. EST, March 27, 2012|
By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
=======================

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/down-r...mplications-of-the-trayvon-martin-case/13837/
Down Range Radio #258: The self-defense implications of the Trayvon Martin case
Posted by Marshal Halloway on Mar 27th, 2012

This week, Michael addresses some VERY serious subjects. First, he talks about some of the self-defense implications of the Trayvon Martin case… although it would be wrong to draw conclusions about the case itself, what can we as armed civilians learn from the firestorm of controversy that surrounds the Florida shooting? Then he talks about safety in the wake of his debriefing of a negligent discharge last week… it’s past time to review the 4 rules again!

NOTE: Unfortunately even this broadcast gets some details wrong, as I understand the facts to be. For example, the address Spike Lee tweeted as Zimmerman's address? It was someone else's, an elderly married couple's, who are now living in fear because of the mistake*. Zimmerman was indeed an 'official' Neighborhood Watch volunteer, the Martin family is considering suing the Homeowner's Association that sponsored the community's Neighborhood Watch organization, of which he was a part. And Zimmerman's initial call (as were many of his other calls) was not to 9-1-1, but to a non-emergency number.

Fred

* http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/spike-lee-zimmerman-tweet-567891
======================================================

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303404704577307613183789698.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
March 27, 2012, 6:47 p.m. ET
The Trayvon Martin Tragedies
By JUAN WILLIAMS

http://ncguns.blogspot.com/2012/03/...m_campaign=Feed:+AnNcGunBlog+(An+NC+Gun+Blog)
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 28, 2012
Why does everyone think Zimmerman wasn’t arrested?

Advocating best practices for concealed carry. But who says what's 'best practices?'

http://www.pagunblog.com/2012/03/29/on-the-self-defense-priesthood/
On the Self-Defense Priesthood
Mar 29, 2012
===================

http://news.yahoo.com/nbc-news-regrets-editing-trayvon-shooting-call-220720073.html
NBC News regrets editing of Trayvon shooting call
Reuters – Tue, Apr 3, 2012