1898 30-40 Krag

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2'Bucks'11

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I inherited a Springfield Armory 1898 30-40 Krag. with metal in a very good condition and a cut down stock. Actually it looks ready to fire, If I could find ammo. Does anybody know about the rarity of this firearm, ammo arability, ect...
 
There's still ammo around. Not sure how much is in current production, but I've seen pretty recent Winchester and Rem around. Also components are very easy to find. Uses standard .308" bullets and tends to favor the big ones (assuming your barrel was cut down from an original). Load data is also available in most all the major manuals. Stay conservative. It has one lug--ONE. With no backup safety lug. Makes for a smooth and fast action, but not one you ever want to push. You have a little piece of steel between you and eternity. It did well against big game for its day due to its ability to fire high sectional density rounds at sedate velocities.

If I were going to hunt with one, I'd look to Woodleigh's bullets and pick one designed to expand at lower velocities. And unless I knew the history of the rifle very well, I'd stay with low octane loads only. It was well made but folks have abused them and you just can't know if there are the beginnings of a failure deep in the lug.
 
From what I know It has been in my family since Mil Issue, I have a grainy american military pick of a relative holding it. And another of the whole CO on a hill with palms behind them. No pic dates that I can remember off hand, been years since I have seen the pic... Still have it though. There is a chance I may only be the third owner of it.
I can tell the barrel is still stock length, With marks from where the bayonet lug was located and original stock ended. The stock is cut at the first band past the bolt. It's stock is stamped FPA 1900 on left side just behind and above the trigger and a P in a circle on the underside behind the trigger. Right side it has some numbers cut off and some remaining. the ones i have is _ _ Y. E 25. It has the Ladder style sights Which I'm assuming is in yards. Do you know how to read them? I had used it once for hunting years ago with grand pa... Haven't seen any ammo in a minute up here and I have no brass to reload... Bummer:( I would like to retire this to the occasional range gun, as I like to cycle all my workable firearms, then clean em. I can post pics on request... I just don't want to flaunt this one on the net, In case it is some thing special, ya know.
 
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You should post pics. The cut stock eliminates most of its value. You could potentially find a full length stock to restore it, but it still wouldn't be of that much interest to the collectors. Its value is really to you personally as a family heirloom, and that's the important thing.

If nobody sells ammo locally you can usually find brass and dies easily on Midway or Gunbroker. Personally I'd give the bore a really good cleaning and de-coppering, then dedicate the rifle to shooting heavy cast bullets. You could probably get some excellent accuracy with cast loads and a little testing.
 
Tyvm, Here are some pics of rifle, If you know what any of the marks mean it would be nice, if not np. again ty for the info.
 

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More pics later I'm getting an error... Oh, and Gander Mt. got back to me they can special order ammo in... it sounds $$
 
Nice one! That looks like a garrison mark on the stock. Too bad it was cut, but then again I'll bet you could splice in the forestock if you could find a 98 stock for sale, that way keeping the garrison mark. Doesn't look like it was otherwise altered and it has a nice patina. Or you could just leave it as is, given the family history. In either case I would not reblue.

I'll bet for the price of some boxes of factory ammo you could pick up Lee dies and some nice cast bullets in the 180-200 grain range.

You can also cast your own, though there's no shortage of .308" cast bullets in that weight range. Good writeup here:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCB30-40Krag.htm

I would suggest a process of load testing using different bullets of different size until you find the sweet spot, then just make a notation to calibrate your tangent sight to that load.

So for example if Load 5 is hitting 1" groups, then make Load 5 your paradigm load and notate point of impact at the notches on the tangent. You can actually do that without moving the target out, just making note of the change in impact height while shooting from a sturdy bench rest. Consultation with ballistic tables will then tell you (give or take) where the impact will be with each tangent. So the 300 yard mark may give you a point of impact for the cast bullet at 200 yards, and so on.
 
The Krag has a safety lug, the guide rib acting as a safely lug. But a safety lug is a last ditch defense; if you need it, you already have a thoroughly ruined rifle.

So the advice to use light loads, is a good one.

Jim
 
Thank you, but could you please explain the Garrison Mark.

I would like to know what marks in the stock mean, However the pics failed to load again... (Idk a different way to load them maybe?)
The first one is FPA (I think) 1900, and the second is a P in a circle

The last pic didn't show the sn to well but it is 252404, I think I have it traced or matched back to fiscal year 1899-1900. ?? Any better Info would be nice...

Is there any way to search issued sn for military service? As I would like to validate the family story. Especially 'cause grand pa past awhile ago... He would have been most likely to know. Ill dig around the family and get the "better" back story, the kind of passed down one. I'm just happy I pulled this rifle out of the rafters a few years ago and said "Mom when, and where did you get this?!" She is NOT a shooter or gun kind of person.
what i find most humorous is the initial appraiser / local ffl put it a $100 or less.
Lol, it is truly priceless.
 
Others know more than I do about it, but it's my understanding the garrison marks were often painted on to indicate the position of a particular service rifle on a rack. I believe they served as a quick and easy way to identify your personal weapon without cross checking the SN. And they made it easy to see if one was missing, and which one was missing, at the end of the day.

It's exceptionally difficult to trace specific rifles to specific units or service. It's been done with Swiss rifles, but only because they have obsessive/compulsive record keeping and even stuck little ID tags under the buttplate. Your own family history, esp. if you can record it or transcribe it, will be the very best source of info. That FPA marking might refer to a particular organization, but you'd need good pics of it.

I would suggest you peruse the Krag collector sites and forums. They're likely to tell you yours has little collector value, but they will also have a good deal of info about the rifle.

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/

For books check out this one:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Rifle-Carbine-Collectors-ebook/dp/B005PZ76AC

The book will likely have more info on particular stamps and markings.
 
Thank you but I had scoured the KCA and it isn't too much substance available with out paying them. Basically it just showed me that I have 1896 2200 fts calibrated sights. FPA 1900 Is the makers mark for sure. So according to SN and stamps match 1900 fiscal year.

http://www.bowersweapons.com/SA%20US%20KRAG%20serial%20numbers.htm

As for the Swiss markings would they engrave inside the but plate or stamp the top?

Some more pics of the firearm here http://photobucket.com/2bucks11
 
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The Swiss were in the habit of putting their actual individual name and address on a card under the buttplate of their Schmidt-Rubins. No other military ever did that to my knowledge, but for the Swiss these weapons were personal. They took them home and kept them until retirement. Not much chance of ever tracing that level of history for a US arm, unless you happen to personally know the owner.
 
Ok, I don't think there is too much more information I can get from the rifle. I just hope mom didn't lose the Company or Regiment photo. I think that is my next digging point, I just hope the 598 Number on the butt plate and his company/regiment no. are the same. It would make things easier.
Thank you for all your help.
I'm going to leave this thread open in case I find the co/reg. photo or somebody else has a question or info about this firearm.
 
That inspector's mark is not "FPA" it is "JSA" for J. Sumnar Adams, who was Inspector of Finished [new] Rifles at Springfield Armory for almost the entire period of Krag production. The P is the proof mark, put on the stock because the finished receiver was too hard to take a stamp properly.

If you are deep in Krag research, it is good to know that the production quantity reports are based on the Fiscal Year (starting 1 July then) while the final inspection date on the cartouche (the term for that square mark on the stock) is the calendar year that rifle was completed.

The "garrison mark" is what most of us call a "rack number", so called because it identified the rifle by position in the rifle rack. It was used for inventory control and to ensure each soldier got the right rifle without checking the serial number. It looks like "E 25" which would mean E company of some infantry regiment. Usually a rack number wouldn't have the regiment; rifles might get mixed up between companies but hardly between regiments.

It is possible that the rifle was actually issued to a family member who brought it home. But that would have been illegal (not that it wasn't done) and I think it more likely that the rifle was simply purchased at the time in the 1920's and 1930's when the Army was selling them off for as little as $1.50.

Jim
 
Thank you Jim.
Yes, I am well that for this to be his issued rifle it would have to stolen. This is a BIG part of the oral history of the firearm. Along with my Great grand pa almost being discharged for altering his firearm (your guess is good as mine). Thus, my quest started because I am skeptical of the whole story. However good it sounds. So I am working on digging up the older photos from great grand pa and the military from my around family. This is very important because the family has the Company photo, some where. I have seen it before but can't recall the writing on it.
So that means IF the Company in the photo matches the "E" on the stock the the story is more likely.

Sorry I'm bad with reading the script style writing on the Cartouche.
As for the Sn and the Cartouche, The SN 25---- points to fiscal year 1900 (ie. 7/1/1899-6/30/1900) with the proof / completion happening in 1900. That's a match in my book; as far as Stock and Receiver being original to each other; again ty Jim :)

Just 2 nagging questions left; Why 598 on the butt plate, and why the 1896 style rear sight?

As for the over all condition of the rifle is Good, but only b/c of the lack of wood stock and bayonet lug. I would have Np with factory loads the metal is great, as I cant get in to hand loading at the moment (oh I want to...). As for the last time I shot it, was dead on at 100. It took a fist size hole out the back of the pumpkin.
 
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If he actually cut the stock on his ISSUED Krag and actually managed to bring it home, you have a legend there not a rifle, and your Great Grandpa was something really special. Lots of guys managed to take enemy bunkers and wade through fire, but almost nobody was brave enough to take a hacksaw to US Government property, let alone clever enough to get to keep it. If it did actually happen, there should be a medal for that.

Can you imagine the Sergeant's face on having the man explain that he just figured he'd lighten the rifle up a bit and help the balance? It would go through red, then beet red, then into colors unknown to science.

But as you say it's more likely this was a surplus purchase. Still with that garrison mark you might actually be able to confirm or refute it. Please keep us posted! This is turning into a really remarkable account.
 
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The good Sarge would have flipped nuts. For sure.

The second thought of the rifle, what I feel is more likely, is could have this been purchased by a soldier in Korea during the Korea Conflict?
I know there where stores of these rifles around due to the boxer and Philippians Rebellions, right at the turn of the 20Th century. So knowing that Grand Pa served in Korea, driving ammo to the front line. I don't Know his brigade, regiment, or company. There is a 598 stamped in the butt plate, But when I Google 598 it leads me to a post WWII transport group. I don't know if they were deployed in Korea or not though. I need to get my Mom, Aunt, Or Uncel to request the info from the US Archives. Being a grand son I don't qualify as direct enough bloodline, per their guide lines.
Regardless it is a fun and learning chase threw the family tree.
 
I don't know whether there were any Krags still in service by the end of WWII. There were so many surplus Garand's it's highly unlikely even a support unit would be issued Krags by that point. That indicates a probable post-service purchase stateside, unless he was in some kind of guard unit. Even then though Garands were all over the place for next to nothing.
 
I believe that they saw second (actually more likely NO line service) by WWI, and were completely phased out of the inventory during the draw down and either sold or sent out to ROTC and veterans organizations as parade/marksman rifles.

Most likely you have a butt number, just that, a number to identify that rifle in the unit, even more likely if it was a ROTC or marksmanship rifle.
 
About 160,000 Krags were still in storage at the time of US entry into WW1 in 1917. They were primarily used as training rifles although a handful of Krags did make it overseas (photos exist) in the hands of engineer units. Krags could also be found on US ships and Coast Guard cutters as late as WW2. The SRS lists show many Krags "donated" to the US Navy in the 1940s.

Your Krag should be a very good cast bullet shooter. As others have already stated, keep loads well within those published in various books. I shoot mine primarily with cast but have a hunting load worked up with 220 gr Hornady RN.
 
I don't think it was issued. I think Grand pa bought it over there and carried it around for a bit; then sent it back. I just don't know if that was allowed, or possible. If not then It would become an all out stateside purchase. Which is the most likely anyway. But I feel she is a fine shooter and little to no leading of the barrel. It will be a couple weeks till I shoot, as I'm not a hand loader yet... So I have to wait for Gander Mtn.
 
Sgt. Schultz carried a Krag on Hogan's Heros, so they were in use during WW2:neener:;)

Anyway, I just picked up your Krag's brother. 1898 rifle with the stock cut of just ahead of the front band. Mine is in nice enough shape that I'm going to try to restore to original "appearance". Several places offer replacement forestock wood (reproduction) that has to be spliced in under the middle band and then fitted and finished. The main pain is going to be trying to match the existing stock finish. I guess the whole thing could be stripped and restained but I don't want to disturb any of the existing markings. These forestock replacement run between $45 and $65. I also need a top handguard. Repro's are available for between $65 and $90 and will need staining. (Be aware that several variations are available depending on the Model and which type of rear sight is on the gun.) Also need an upper band that contains the bayonet lug and stacking swivel. The only source I've found for it wants $85 for an original stripped one. The swivel and screws will run another$15 or so.
I'm hoping to find the hanguard and upper band locally, but not holding my breath.
 
That is nice to know that repro. is available. I was gonna try to find a broken butt stock original, or whatever. For me the most of the value is in family history. And good call on Hogan's I had to Netflix it.
 
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