Floridas "stand your ground law"

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It has been defined in appellate court findings and has, in fact, been included in jury instructions on occasion.

One cannot rely on an state law as written, or in particularly on any one stature taken in isolation, for an understanding of the law. One must also know the case law.

(a) It's not clearly defined in case law either. It's been stated as "Great bodily harm defines itself and means great as distinguished from slight, trivial, minor, or moderate harm, and as such does not include mere bruises as are likely to be inflicted in a simple assault and battery" but does not have to include "permanent disability or disfigurement" so less harm than that can also constitute "great bodily harm". This is exceedingly unclear as to what level of harm is actually being referred to.

(b) In a self defense situation a person shouldn't have to have the knowledge of an experienced trial attorney AND a medical professional in order to know how they're legally allowed to defend themselves. This FL statute requires both.
 
Captain's question is a good one. When does 776.041 come into play? Let's say the person is goading the other into hitting him, but the punches and kicks are overwhelming. The suspect is on the ground yelling for help, getting more injured. At that point retreat is not possible, and grave harm is imminent. The way the statute reads, it appears to focus on the situation after the first punch, not the lead-up to that situation.

You don't have to retreat, but it does not grant a right to pursue an individual based upon "suspicious" activity. If that person is not a reasonable threat, then force is not justified. If that person is retreating from the situation, force is not justified.

It *SHOULD* do this, I think we all agree. The problem is that the way Florida's laws were drafted, they may exculpate the person who continues to pursue trouble. Because there's nothing illegal about pursuing trouble, however stupid it may be.
 
I don't think "provoke" is defined in Florida law, either. Have you provoked an attack by saying, "You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny?" What level of provocation brings this law into play?

Also correct and a flaw in FL self-defense law, imo.
 
20+ states have had "Stand Your Ground" laws for a decade. So far this is the first major incident that has come up. that I know of. That would tend to tell me that there just isn't a real problem with "Stand Your Ground" laws.
 
Also correct and a flaw in FL self-defense law, imo.

There is nothing in the case law?

Look for 'fighting words'

Folks seem to forget that case (common) law is also the law.

Statute law rarely covers every possible set of circumstances, and case law at least gives a reference to how the statute law has been interpreted and applied.
 
I am still not sure how the SYG law even applies in this circumstance. If anyone was forced to stand there ground it was the deceased.
 
I am still not sure how the SYG law even applies in this circumstance. If anyone was forced to stand there ground it was the deceased.
That does not matter at this point. We are discussing the law itself, not the Zimmerman case.

[Bolded and embiggened for emphasis!]
 
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SYG applies as long as your were not doing anything illegal before you were attacked. AFAIK, under Florida law:

Following a person - not illegal
Verbally confronting or challenging a person - not illegal
Grabbing, shoving, punching, etc., a person - illegal

So if you see someone walking, and you chase up to them and ask them what they're doing, and that person then shoves you, they have committed assault. You are allowed to defend yourself and if the situation becomes such that you are at risk of death or great bodily harm, you are allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself. SYG applies because you were doing nothing illegal at the time you were assaulted.

OTOH, if you see someone walking, and you chase up to them and grab their arm, and ask them what they're doing, you have committed an illegal act. If the situation escalates and you use deadly force, you would have no protection under the SYG law.

FWIW, IANAL. I'd love to hear an opinion from one, and I know there are a few on the forum.
 
Anyone that chooses to be an armed citizen (and one of the good guys) needs to think through all the possible consequences of using that weapon, even as an absolute last resort.

100% on the money. In my opinion, if you are carrying a concealed handgun then it makes the most sense to ALWAYS leave an ugly situation. My concern has always been that some yahoo with a concealed carry permit will think himself "deputized" and try to enforce the law.

I hate to say it, but we might be seeing the first "check" on a string of gun rights victories.
 
If someone advances on me, in a threatening way, I should have the right to defend myself. It is my opinion that any type of aggressive action towards me, warrants self-defense. I should not have to turn my back and run, the aggressor should not have escalted the situation to the point that I feel threatened. I guarantee if more places had SYG laws, violent, physical altercations would go down. Why? Same reason states with castle laws generally have lower burglary rates, bad guys don't want shot.
 
There is nothing in the case law?

Look for 'fighting words'

Folks seem to forget that case (common) law is also the law.

Statute law rarely covers every possible set of circumstances, and case law at least gives a reference to how the statute law has been interpreted and applied.
absinthe quoted what appears to be caselaw above, so you might cut him some slack here. Maybe you could define "provoke" for us, in the way you've suggested?
 
The search for sane public policy that does not trample the right to a self defense

This post represents my thoughtful effort to create a simplified model to address the complex legal and emotional issues that have emerged from the recent Florida event “that we dare not speak its name”. That “nameless” event, and others like it have already caused a media feeding frenzy that will enormously complicate – if not make impossible, any objective, rational discussion among ALL Americans, and our elected “leaders”, on how to calibrate a sane public policy that is reconciled with our rights to an effective and “affordable” self defense. For purposes of this essay, I intend for “sane public policy” and “affordable self defense” to signify, respectively, “the means” and “the objective”. I define “affordable self defense” to mean that a would-be victim need not sacrifice his life or physical or mental health to a criminal aggressor on the one hand, or face financial ruin resulting from a criminal prosecution of his act of self defense, on the other. Of course, as with much of life, “the devil is in the details”. But please don’t read this expecting me to have any answers. All I have is reflections and questions.

I think of all laws, especially criminal laws, as “fishing nets”. These “nets” are designed to trawl the sea that is society, and harvest from it, a certain species of fish known as “criminals”.

I presume I can safely assume that ALL Americans, regardless of political stripe or color, save for perhaps the anarchists among us, agree that our government needs these “nets” to protect our society.

Hence, I also presume that we can all agree that the “problem” (i.e. “the media feeding frenzy resulting from the ‘nameless event’) is not the net. Rather, it is the size of the mesh. To those anarchists (or fence sitters) who doubt the need for the net, I hope you will soon visit Somalia; preferably by boat.

The problem (size of the mesh) with any law, civil or criminal, results from the fact that not all of the fish of the targeted species, are the same size. Hence, the net's mesh will never be perfectly sized, which is to say that public policy will never be perfectly calibrated.

The CHL laws in general, and the SYG law in particular, are still largely uncalibrated. At one end of the public policy spectrum we have "the duty to retreat" ("small mesh").and at the other, “Stand Your Ground” ("large mesh").

Sadly, on a Texas CHL forum, I recently saw a post from a member, a CHL holder, to the following tenor: “I used to be afraid of criminals. So I got a CHL. But now that I have a CHL, I’m not in less fear, I’m in twice as much fear. I used to fear criminals and I still do. But now, I also fear my government. The courts. Politicized and selective prosecution as the result of a self defense incident. Financial ruin. And possibly, even incarceration after all the rest, simply as the result of a self defense incident. So, I’m not going to carry anymore”. So, in my idealized utopian dream, “sane public policy” would/should be one in which we at least fear being wrongly prosecuted by our government less than we fear being victimized by criminals.

As has been stated elsewhere, the problem with the "duty to retreat" is that it makes it easier for the prosecutor to criminalize the behavior of a person who himself was – or was about to be – a victim of a crime. A problem with “stand your ground” is that it diminishes the prosecutor’s power, which in turn empowers the individual citizen. And of course, neither “the powers that be”, nor “the blue state people” who elected them, like this.

Toward the beginning of this essay I disclaimed that I would have any answers. And I don’t. But the “Oracle of Delphi” does. So I will close with an old lawyer’s joke.

After four years of hard work, and now with crushing debt, a bright and diligent young man graduates from law school. Before going into practice he decides to go to the Greek Island of Delphi and consult the Oracle. So he does. He climbs the mountain. With eyes averted, he says “Oh Oracle! I beseech you! I’ve invested all my parents’ retirement money in a legal education. What will it take to become successful and rich?”

The mountains thunder and a deep voice bellows: “GOOD JUDGMENT”.

The guy looks perplexed. So he asks: “Alright then. What does it take to have good judgment”?

The oracle bellows: “EXPERIENCE.”

Still confused, the guy asks: Well, smarty pants. What does it take to get experience???”

To which the oracle replies: “BAD JUDGMENT”.

So, there you have it. I will close with my favorite Teddy Roosevelt line: “Speak softly. And carry a big stick”.

I believe that many people who “carry big sticks” (i.e. concealed weapons) lack the humility and/or the maturity to “speak softly”. I also believe that there is a trace of good in every evil person and that, conversely, there is a trace of evil in all the rest of us. Although that trace evil goes by many names, one of its names is “vigilantism”.

Respectfully submitted,

VT
 
absinthe quoted what appears to be caselaw above, so you might cut him some slack here. Maybe you could define "provoke" for us, in the way you've suggested?

He posted about 'great bodily harm' and did not cite ANY cases, the very heart of case law.
The cases.

And I am not about to spend $ searching Florida case law.

I have spent enough on Virginia (and then the tie to read them).
 
If someone advances on me, in a threatening way, I should have the right to defend myself. It is my opinion that any type of aggressive action towards me, warrants self-defense. I should not have to turn my back and run, the aggressor should not have escalted the situation to the point that I feel threatened. I guarantee if more places had SYG laws, violent, physical altercations would go down. Why? Same reason states with castle laws generally have lower burglary rates, bad guys don't want shot.

You're saying that you'd rather kill a human being than walk away. If someone gets in your face, you'll put a bullet in them rather than deescalate and leave.

You value your pride more than a human life.

This is horrifying. And certainly not "the high road."
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

If you carry a concealed handgun (with a permit), then you should ALWAYS deescalate, defuse, and, if necessary, RETREAT from ugly situations.

If someone has road rage, then you just keep your eyes on the road.

If someone is going crazy in a public place, then you escort yourself and your loved ones out of there.

If someone is screaming at you, then you apologize, thank them for their time, and LEAVE.

If you have crazy friends, then you get new friends.

If you are a night owl that loves iHop, then wait until the following morning to go eat some pancakes. If you can't wait, then make them yourself.

You aren't a cop. Your carry permit does not deputize you.
 
my posts have been removed twice. What is up with that!!

We aren't getting into a discussion about that, so stop talking about it.

This is a discussion of certain LEGAL issues which are important. Not a debate about the case which shall remain nameless. If there's a problem with the SYG laws it behooves us to fix it rather than risk more damaging incidents.
 
OK, so be it. Legal issues.

If a man pursues someone else and then provokes an altercation that the other man is trying to flee from, cany you invoke self defense and stand your ground under this FL statute?
 
If a man pursues someone else and then provokes an altercation that the other man is trying to flee from, cany you invoke self defense and stand your ground under this FL statute?

Asked and answered

Read these prior posts in this thread: #123 #143, #147, #150, #157
 
So the person who is standing there should just wait and see what the person advancing on them in the threatening or aggressive manner is up to before defending themself???

It's not my pride, but my life I am worried about. This is MY "high road".
 
Just because there is a fist fight between two equally matched people does not mean that deadly force is justified. There must be disparity of force. I don't see that in a certain case I heard about on the news.
 
I've been on three criminal-case juries and have been a witness in a murder trial. One thing for sure: An accused person, if the jury sees him as an instigator, is in seriously deep doo-doo. It's a matter of persuading a jury that the action was that of a reasonable and prudent person. Any indication of being a chest-thumper, like some in this thread, and you have good odds of the Graybar Hotel.
 
that was eye opening

The "threat of armed reprisal" is just one of the things that learned men have tried to control through the enactment of laws that go back some four thousand plus years.



Talk about "chest bumping"!

A few key points:

  • "Feelng that one's life is in danger" is not sufficient to lawfully justify the use of deadly force. There's the little matter of a basis for reasonable belief that such force is immediately necessary to defend against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm, as a last resort.
  • While deadly force may reuslt in the death of someone, killing is not a lawful goal, since what is necessary is to protect oneself by eliminating the efficacy of the threat.
  • Statements such as those in a public forum are permanent and discoverable. They may be used as evidence to indicate sate of mind and a predisposion toward violent criminal action, and can adversely affect what may otherwise have been a successful defense of justification.

For more on the first two points, see this.

On the last one, see this.
hello, world. my first post on THR, after being a reader of several years.

just wanted to say, Kleanbore's 2nd link re: forum posts being possibly subject to discovery in possible trials is an interesting one, that i had not considered before. the thread linked to is thought provoking, & far reaching beyond just posts on THR.

i am cautious by nature, & think that inflammatory or "chest-bumping" posts are in general ill-advised. judging from the information provided, it seems clear, also, that they can be used against you in a court of law.

thank you for the education.
 
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We should requiire that all citizens carry heat in public. Mutual shared destruction is a powerful incentive to behave and get along.

The wild west wasn't. And that is one reason why.
 
Posted by rajb123: The wild west wasn't. And that [(all citizens carry heat in public)] is one reason why.
Ah, the misconceptions spawned by screen fiction.

One can find some old photos of rangers and posse members, lawmen, and some famous outlaws armed to the teeth, primarily with long arms.

However, most photos of other "westerners" with single action revolvers strapped to their hips come from movie posters. Take a look at old photos of real cowboys in, say, New Mexico a hundred years ago, and you will usually notice an almost complete absence of firearms unless the pictures were taken at hunting camps.

All kinds of reasons have been given for that: widespread municipal restrictions in the towns of the old west, cost , lack of need, the greater effectiveness and usefulness of a rifle, and so forth, but according to an uncle of mine who was a cowboy in old New Mexico, said the real reason was weight and bulk--carrying a gun belt was not conducive to doing a hard day's work roping and branding cattle or driving them.

Men walking around all day in Stetson hats with guns on their belts are largely the stuff of fiction, like the proverbial fast-draw duels, men hitting other men with shots from galloping horses, and "good guys" using 1892 Winchesters to defend against marauders armed with lances, tomahawks, and bows and arrows.

The "Stand Your Ground" law, by the way, is not a gun law. It has to do with the use of force, whether the user employs a baseball bat, or a gun or a Blackthorn walking stick.
 
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