Violating company policy WRT to firearms

For me, the only thing we have in life is our character and reputation. If I sign a document, and/or give my word that I will take employment, and follow company policy I will do just that. I know the risk of being unarmed, and I know the risk of being unemployed, but the greater risk for me is harming my character and reputation.

Trunk Monkey said:

To me, the question boils down to what is your word worth.

Ragnar, you have admitted that you'll lie to your employer about carrying if it suits you, what else will you lie about?

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I never gave anyone my word in this matter.

I am under no illusions that my employer gives 2 cents about my welfare beyond the barest minimum of OSHA requirements and I know from experience that they will violate those standards any time they think they can get away with it -- which is frequently because in this economy people are too afraid of losing their job if OSHA shuts the place down.

Whether I carry a gun or not is no more my employer's business than whether I wear bikini briefs or granny panties.

Keeping your word true is admirable. It is a shame more people don't. However, what bothers me about people carrying in violation of company policies is that they of cry and whine when they get busted for carrying and about how unfair it is to be fired as a result.

There seem to be two types of firings. There are the firings where the person has to use his/her gun in self defense and then there are those who get fired because they stupidly allowed for their concealed gun to be discovered. It is this second group that seems to whine the loudest.

If you take a job where you don't agree with the rules and opt not to follow the rules, then it really should come as no surprise when you get fired for violating the rules. Take responsibility for your actions of violating the policy and find another job.

My view is that it is IMMORAL to require people to choose between personal safety and company policy (or, the law).

If you think you need to protect yourself, then you protect yourself. Just be prepared to live with the consequences involved with living in an unfree society.

wyohome said:

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I don't look at it as misguided, they have their ass to cover, I have mine. In 45 years of working for others, I have never been asked if I was carrying.

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Its misguided because its ineffective.

As I said in my original post, the company "no weapons" policy didn't prevent a guy who was mad about being fired from picking up a piece of pipe (pipe, metal bars, assorted tools, pieces of 2x4, and razor-sharp blades are commonplace items in our factory), and putting one of the supervisors into the ICU.

Agsalaska said:

Trunk Monkey, as you probably know from the last thread, I absolutely agree with you. If you cannot meet the terms of employment by the employer than you should not accept the position.

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And if the employer changes the rule on you what then?

My employer went from no policy at all to "no weapons" after I'd been working there for over a year.

I didn't agree to anything. Am I supposed to put my family on food stamps to suit your sense of honor?

"I'd rather git caught wid it dan widout it"
Saggy Pants Street Thug

Ragnar Danneskjold said:

And some of us are OK with that. It's a matter of asking yourself what the worst case scenario is, and if you're ok with that. Get caught with a gun and the worst case is getting fired, and possible legal ramifications. Get caught by a criminal without a gun and the worse case is death. I choose the first option.

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That's how I see it.

Had I been on shift and aware of the altercation that I referenced earlier I hope that I would have had the quickness and courage to have shot the guy who was in the process of beating the supervisor to death -- interrupted short of fatality only because the police arrived very quickly. If the company had still wished to fire me for violating policy it would have been their right. But my conscience would have been clear.

Trunk Monkey said:

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Having said that, I’d like to hear from people who hold a different point of view and I’d like to hear them explain their rationale and what makes it OK for them.

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I did so in my original post.

If you're going to continue to condemn my practices please do me the courtesy of responding to my reasons.

For your convenience, I quote said post:

When I was hired my employer had no policy about weapons. Somewhat over a year later the factory's owners adopted a "no weapons" policy. Which is absolutely ridiculous since we have multiple objects within arms reach than can be used as improvised weapons and use things such as box cutters and razor-sharp thread snips in our daily work.

Considering that I used to work 15 feet from a woman who carried her protection order on her body because her crazy ex had come to previous workplaces to make trouble, that my husband owns a collections agency and has had his family threatened by debtors, that I argue politics on the internet under another name and have gotten death threats, that I currently work with a woman who is involved in a nasty child custody dispute with accusations of child abuse from both sides and a guy involved who has both made threats and violated the restraining order against him, and that the "no weapons" policy did not prevent a guy who was mad about being fired from putting a manager into the ICU with a piece of pipe that had been lying nearby I have continued to carry at work.

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If I sign a document, and/or give my word that I will take employment, and follow company policy I will do just that.

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Same here. If I can't follow the rules, it's time to seek employment elsewhere.

And if there is no other employment available? If the choice is either take the one job offered or become a moocher? Especially these days "just go find another job that lets you carry" is not always possible.

As 3KillerBs said, should one put their family on food stamps and leech off the taxpayers just to appease a sense of honor?

I also believe that signing a company policy statement only indicates that it has been read. There may be provisions about reading a newspaper or taking 30 minutes or less for lunch. These have been read and understood. What direction you wish to take is up to you.

So if you owned a company, and had a policy that employees wear a uniform, or follow other rules of employent, you'd be OK with them willingly violating that rule for personal reasons?

How about if it raised your insurance rates or made you un-insurable?

When you agree to work for a company you are entering into a form of contract. The rules and regs of employment are part of that contract.

Sam1911
To whom, or by what standard are you "claiming the moral high ground?" As the company really doesn't care about your moral compunctions -- only compliance with policy -- the morality of it is just between you and yourself. If you consider signing an employment agreement a solemn pledge that you bind yourself to follow, then you are breaking trust and harming yourself if you do.

A more realpolitik view of how contracts work and how legal documents are machines or instruments to be played by the lawyers of the parties involved might produce a different view of the matter.

Personally, I would NEVER carry at work if I couldn't accept the repercussions of being discovered. Beyond that, the question would be irrelevant.

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If it is strictly company policy and they do not have anything posted at the front door or if it is not a violation of the law, I would do whatever my situation warranted. I personally do not generally carry at work. Even when I do it is a little fairly useless NAA Mini - but that is another discussion.

So if you owned a company, and had a policy that employees wear a uniform, or follow other rules of employent, you'd be OK with them willingly violating that rule for personal reasons?

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No. I'd fire them. And every single person in this thread who has said they would carry at work if it were prohibited has also said they know they would probably get fired and accept that risk.

What's your point?

As long as you are willing to take resposibility for your actions, do as you wish.

As long as you are willing to take resposibility for your actions, do as you wish.

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Exactly

Awhile back, I posted about how I violated a hospital's Gun Free Zone policy when I was admitted for pneumonia, and I caught a lot of grief over it, and was called a liar, both told publicly and through private messages, among other foul names. I stand by my actions; my life is morth more than a private entity's rules that were put in place not for safety reasons, but for the sake of liability and insurance. If you choose to carry at work against company policy, that's your decision, but accept the fact that you will be fired, and not be able to collect unemployment, and may be unemployable in the future.

How about I abide by the company's rules to appease my sense of honor?

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Because you could die.

My sense of honor tells me I would rather be around to fight for my unemployment benefits and look for another job to feed my family than be dead and hope my life insurance policy will carry them through. Having a fighting chance to accept the consequences trumps policy.

My employer pays me for a service and I have been there 32 years but they are not my higher moral authority.

It's generally highly unlikely that any of us will need our firearms in everyday life at all. Yet most of us go out of our way to carry anyways because we know they one time it is needed, we'd better have it.

And when others are faced with certain conditions:
1: Bills must be paid.
2: Only one job available, which bans firearms.
3: A desire to defend oneself, and unwillingness to place oneself at the mercy of criminals.

Under those conditions one can either take the job and violate the policy, or leech off the government. Not only is leeching off the government undesirable, but it's also physically the worse choice. By not taking the job, I would be consuming the tax dollars of others for certain. Not to mention that choosing to consume my tax dollars through unemployment just so that you can feel honorable is actually a pretty dishonorable thing to do. So you must have an actual job and pay your own bills. If the only job available is one where you are not allowed to carry, you either are ok with being disarmed, or you break the policy.

I'm not ok with being disarmed. Not for a rule. The law is another story, but rules? Nope.

Gtimothy said:

As with everything in life we have choices. If you work for a company that does NOT allow carrying a weapon of any kind, including "non-lethal", and YOU decide to flex your 2A rights, expect to be fired if you're caught! It's that simple! Weather or not the company cares about your welfare or not is NOT the issue! The issue is, THEIR company, THEIR rules, THEIR liability!

Florida, where I live, is a "Right to Work" state. You can be fired for just about anything. In Florida, good jobs are hard to find so sometimes you just have to decide which is more important...working or risking losing your job! If you don't like the policy, don't work for them!

And no, I don't carry on the job (Security Guard) even though I have ALL of the required licences to do so. My post is not an armed post and I honor my company's NO CARRY policy.

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Ah, but in your case, it is a violation of state law for you to carry at work on an unarmed post.

Ankeny said:

Same here. If I can't follow the rules, it's time to seek employment elsewhere.

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So, you have never taken a 15 minute break instead of 10, or 35 minutes for lunch instead of 30? You never took home the obsolete computer disk that would have been thrown away instead? Never talked to your coworker on company time, or joined the basketball pool in violation of the company's anti-gambling policies?