Zimmerman/Martin shooting

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rajb:
Yes, the most pertinent information from the autopsy reguarding the bullet would be the trajectory, direction, what was hit, ect. Without bullet pass through, like I stated earlier, it would be impossible to tell who was up and who was down just by that alone.
Loosedhorse,
Yes there are other tells like abrasions on knees and such but in a scuffle positions can change. One could be on top and get abrasions and then be wrestled down to the bottom and may or may not recieve abrasions. So those things are more circumstantial evidence proving that there was a scuffle, not necessarily who was where when the shot was fired.
Again, everything depends on if the bullet passed through or not, that is the tell.
 
Our local news reports that possibly due to the great recession, property crime is up in our area. Property crime seems to track the economy in the opposite direction, when the economy is good, property crime goes down, because thieves have managed to find real jobs apparently. Property crime is the nemesis of better neighborhoods, not violent crime.

Its funny how easily people get their wires crossed when they try to state their views. Murders and rapes and drug crimes have little to do with better neighborhoods. Better neighborhoods are the targets of property crime.

The issue in Zimmerman's neighborhood was property crime. The issue in my neighborhood is also property crime. This is a trend that I see getting worse, not deminishing.

Where I live now, the couple upstairs suffered a burglary not long ago. The lady across the driveway who is also in our neighborhood watch group did not see anything although she had a clear view of the unoccupied residence. Whoever did it knew what they were doing and knew the couple would be gone. Neighborhood watch was defeated by whomever this perp was.

Some have said a neighborhood watch volunteer should never be armed. I would agree with that before midnight, but not agree after midnight. There are lots of people still strolling around before midnight, couples, dog walkers, kids coming home, people returning from work or dinner out. Based on my own procedures, it was too early in the evening at 7:30 pm for Zimmerman to be armed. A cell phone should be all anyone needs with them before midnight. I would never arm myself unless it was after midnight.

And I would only shoot someone for coming straight at me, while I was positioned someplace out of the way, where no one would have a reason to approach, after telling them to stop.

And I would not shoot center mass unless they were armed with a firearm. The heart and the liver are center mass. And wounding the heart or liver would be a lethal shot. A lung shot could become leathal quickly as well, if EMS did not arrive quickly enough, and evacuate to a trauma center quickly enough.

The barrel bushing on my 45ACP makes it a very accurate pistol. I do not doubt in my ability to hit whatever I am aiming at. That's why I practice. And when I bought the 45 I made sure it was among the most accurate of all 45's.

As property crime strikes close to home in my neighborhood, even though it is a good neighborhood, my own stealthy procedures of staying out of sight, and waiting to call-in a complaint until I actually see a crime in progress, and staying out of sight until I do, have been working really well, for me. Zimmerman somehow did not accomplish that. His testimony and the cross examination in his trial on this point should be riviting.

What I have learned from Zimmerman was already intuitively obvious. Keep your distance, stay out of sight, be stealthy, don't confront, be very polite with neighbors if they spot you, and wait until you actually see a crime in progress, before calling anything in.

I do not expect property crime to let-off anytime soon.
 
So much ridiculousness in there. Neighborhood watch is private citizen - if they have a CCL, they should carry whenever they please. Their position as neighborhood watch should in no way change when they implement use of that firearm however.

And the whole business of not shooting center mass... Yeah, I'll leave that for someone else because it's going to draw long comments regardless of what I say.
 
Dear Shobee,

Yes, property crimes in CA are a big issue and we have had I believe 4 home robberies in the last six months in our immediate neighborhood. Not sure where you are in CA that you can carry concealed (I have a house in LA county so I am out of luck on that issue) but if carry, you carry. That has no bearing whatsoever in whether you participate in a neighborhood watch or not. If it is legal for you to be armed, being on a neighborhood watch does not diminish that right whatsoever.

If the home owners association prohibit concealed carry on neighborhood watch, guess who is not going to become a member of the neighborhood watch. You can be a good witness and carry a gun at the same time.

Not shooting center of mass and declaring that in a public forum subject to discovery ain't some thing I would do. Simply put, if you shoot to wound, you open yourself up to the allegation it wasn't really a life and death situation of the gravest extreme. You never shoot to wound and you never shoot to kill. Instead, you are only allowed to shoot to stop even if you kill the person accomplishing that task.

So while I agree that property crimes are a terrible problem in CA and lots of other places, I can't agree with some of your tactics.
 
And I would not shoot center mass unless they were armed with a firearm. The heart and the liver are center mass. And wounding the heart or liver would be a lethal shot
Two of the advantages of COM is that it is quick to acquire, and large enough to still get "a piece of" if the target moves (and if someone were shooting at me, I'd be moving! :D). I am concerned that your choice to choose a target other than COM will lead to several problems (besides legal justfication questions) such as slower fire, increased risk of misses (with increased risk for hitting bystanders), and lower likelihood of stopping the attacker.

I would choose COM almost always to stop any deadly attack, but you and I don't have to agree.
 
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Here are my thoughts. Haven't posted here often lately, but I keep thinking about this issue and want to get some feedback on my stance. So have at it gentlemen.

The facts we know from the 911 calls and the eventual shooting show that Zimmerman made a series of poor judgement decisions that landed him in his situation.

At some point Zimmerman exited his vehicle to follow Martin (who could have been armed and was acting suspiciously) on foot, against the advice of the 911 operator.

Zimmerman repeatedly said something to the effect that he had no confidence in law enforcements ability to track down Martin. ie "These guys always get away"... making it easy for prosecution assert that he may have been trying to take the law into his own hands when he pursued Martin on foot.

He made the decision to get off the phone with the 911 operators, exit his vehicle when he could have driven away and let the police handle what his call to 911 (prior to his pedestrian surveillance) officially turned into police business.

It is indisputable that those decisions eventually led to provoking the teen to approach him a second time, on foot. (The first time Martin allegedly approached the Zimmerman was while Zimmerman was on the phone with the 911 operator. Here Zimmerman also made comments that show he understood Martin could be armed based on the body language he observed and relayed to the operator)

There were so many opportunities for Zimmerman to avoid what led to this shooting, and that's what prosecutors will use against him.

At some point, as witnesses have testified to police, Zimmerman was getting his head slammed against the concrete. A persons body is fully capable of being a deadly weapon, especially when used to hit another persons brain against a street. Zimmerman was surely in fear of his life when he fired, and validly so. If I was getting my head beat into the concrete, I would fire too, regardless of the situation prior. That doesn't change the fact he could have avoided the situation, and standing your ground isn't following someone you believe to be armed and mischievous.

He was neighborhood watch, not neighborhood police, and that's how he acted repeatedly.


So my summarized answer for this threads question is: What we learn from this is: Don't follow people, especially suspicious people, or we can cause serious problems for ourselves, legally and otherwise. Am I missing something here?
 
Hollywood strikes again!?

I'm not going to wade into this one since it appears some did not come here to learn, but to justify that which they already believe.

For the rest that haven't spent as much time on the legal aspects of SD as they should, here's a relevant article:

Cops furious at 'don't-kill' bill
Not a bad article once you get past the sensational headline.
'Course, there is at least one glaring error:
The bill -- drafted in the wake of Sean Bell's controversial police shooting death -- would force officers to use their weapons "with the intent to stop, rather than kill" a suspect. They would be mandated to "shoot a suspect in the arm or the leg."
Under present NYPD training, cops are taught to shoot at the center of their target and fire their weapon until the threat has been stopped.

Note it did not say the cops are taught to shoot until the threat is dead!

Also note in the article it's stated that NYPD LE hit their targets only 17 percent of the time. Wonder what would happen to that stat if they start trying to shoot to wound?
 
Couple of things:

At some point Zimmerman exited his vehicle to follow Martin (who could have been armed and was acting suspiciously) on foot, against the advice of the 911 operator.

Zimmerman was not talking to the 911 operator. He did not call 911. He called Sanford PD on a non-emergency line. We know the exact time Zimmerman first left his vehicle because it is on the recording of his call to PD. It was AFTER he had left the vehicle that SPD advised him that he did not need to be following the subject. We do not know if he returned to his vehicle at this point or not, but as he told PD "He ran" (note past tense) and "I don't know where this kid is." it appears he was no longer following Martin at this point.

He made the decision to get off the phone with the 911 operators, exit his vehicle when he could have driven away and let the police handle what his call to 911 (prior to his pedestrian surveillance) officially turned into police business.

See above. Zimmerman did not call 911, and did not end his call to SPD until after he had lost sight of Martin. It was agreed by SPD that the responding officers would call his cell when they arrived to get his location. The call ended at this point.

The call ended at 7:13:41. The first call to 911 came at 7:16:11, 2 and half minutes later. We do not know what happened in that interval except for the account of an unnamed eyewitness and an ABC interview of Martin's girlfriend who was on the phone with him during this time.
 
Posted by Shoobee: Property crime is the nemesis of better neighborhoods, not violent crime. .... Better neighborhoods are the targets of property crime.
Home invasions, car-jackings, kidnappings, armed robbery, and strong-arm robbery--all crimes against the person--are likely to occur anywhere that money is, and with predators having mobility, "better neighborhoods" are by no means immune to such crime.

Based on my own procedures, it was too early in the evening at 7:30 pm for Zimmerman to be armed.
I cannot speak to more than a couple of your "own procedures", but that one is patently absurd.

I would never arm myself unless it was after midnight.
That, of course, is your prerogative. That's a new one to me. I choose a very different schedule indeed.

And I would only shoot someone for coming straight at me, while I was positioned someplace out of the way, where no one would have a reason to approach, after telling them to stop.
Apparently you did not understand what Sam said about that. If you do not have a sufficient understanding of the basic rules of self defense to enable you to comprehend what he said, I strongly suggest that you remedy that as soon as possible.

First, just to establish one incontrovertible fact, no one other than a sworn officer on duty is ever lawfully justified to enforce a command to stop simply because that someone might not "have a reason to approach".

Second--well, lets get to the basics. In general, one is justified in the use of deadly force only when that person has a basis for a reasonable belief (a basis that will be judged by others, by the way) that the use of such force is the only way to defend against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. There are some exceptions regarding the prevention of some kinds of felonies in some jurisdictions, but the standards of reasonableness and necessity are higher in those cases.

May I strongly suggest that you bookmark and study http://www.useofforce.us/ very thoroughly and very carefully.

And I would not shoot center mass unless they were armed with a firearm.
Pay some attention to Loosedhorse on that; he knows what he is talking about.

Two of the advantages of COM is that it is quick to acquire, and large enough to still get "a piece of" if the target moves (and if someone were whooting at me, I'd be moving! ). I am concerned that your choice to choose a target other than COM will lead to several problems (besides legal justfication questions) such as slower fire, increased risk of misses (with increased risk for hitting bystanders), and lower likelihood of stopping the attacker.

And consider this: Should an attacker armed with an edged weapon suddenly and unexpectedly charge you from behind cover (bush, wall, gas pump, parked car) within the proverbial "Tueller" distance, you will be lucky to be able to draw and acquire any other target but center mass if that before you are seriously injured.

The heart and the liver are center mass. And wounding the heart or liver would be a lethal shot. A lung shot could become leathal quickly as well, if EMS did not arrive quickly enough, and evacuate to a trauma center quickly enough.
Somewhere between 85% and 95% of persons shot by handguns survive, unless they are shot in the head.

But that is not your uproblem. Your problem is to stop a violent criminal actor before he inflicts a serious wound on you. A head shot (actually, a shot to a specific, small part of the head would be the most effective hit, but in most SD encounters it is very unlikley that even trained shooters could effect that except by chance.

That's why everyone trains to shoot at the largest target area that is presented. That's usually center mass.

The barrel bushing on my 45ACP makes it a very accurate pistol. I do not doubt in my ability to hit whatever I am aiming at. That's why I practice. And when I bought the 45 I made sure it was among the most accurate of all 45's.
I too have a very accurate .45. On a good day I can put most of my shots in half a playing card at seven yards, if I try.

But I no longer try to do that, except occasionally for fun, because that skill is almost always useless in a justified use of force encounter involving a civilian.

When I first attended a high performance defensive pistol class some time back, I became aware for the first time, after all of my years at the range, that speed is of the essence. We fired one group at the beginning, and from than on, it was a matter if improving how quickly we could make multiple hits on--anywhere on--each of several torso sized steel targets (that teaches the skills necessary to hit a running target or multiple attackers). The distance was seven yards.

The instructors could consistently hit each of three targets twice, reload, and repeat the process in a little over four seconds. They were more concerned about the shapes of their magazine well openings than about their barrel bushings.

Forget target accuracy in self defense, and forget completely about the idea of shooting to wound.
 
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Then they too are profiling, Kleanbore. I prefer to watch potential perps for awhile. I want to make sure they are not neighbors up late.

The funny thing is that I do not dare bring my binos with me. Because then someone might call me in as a peeper. But binos would make observation much more acute.
 
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Tritone -- So my summarized answer for this threads question is: What we learn from this is: Don't follow people, especially suspicious people, or we can cause serious problems for ourselves, legally and otherwise. Am I missing something here?

I completely agree, Tritone. And it seems to me that this was always self evident.

What I have however learned from this thread is that if you shoot someone for any reason you may be in really hot water. Self defense or not. I always thought self defense was ok anywhere.

In the Z case, at issue is whether he was actually shooting in self defense, and this will become the focus of the trial.

I suppose anytime you shoot someone who does not have a gun or knife, it will be questioned whether you were really shooting in self defense.

An assault may be an assault based on physical size alone.
 
Posted by Shoobee: Then they too [police who would take exception to advice to wait until one sees actually a crime in progress before calling anything in] are profiling, Kleanbore.
Profiling?? Where in the world did profiling come into the picture?

If I see a moving van parked near a neighbor's house at at night when they are on vacation, calling that in to the police is a prudent thing to do, and advice from the police to do so does not constitute "profiling".

We could have a whole thread here listing things that might reasonably be "called in" before one "actually sees a crime in progress".
 
Strange vehicles pulling into my neighborhood, and parking, and no doors opening and closing, is one of the sounds I listen for at night, agreed.

But it could easily be lovers.

Even that one, I would watch and observe for quite a while.
 
Posted by Shoobee: What I have however learned from this thread is that if you shoot someone for any reason you may be in really hot water.
Don't forget striking them with a bat or club.

Self defense or not. I always thought self defense was ok anywhere.
It is, in this country.

In the Z case, at issue is whether he was actually shooting in self defense, and this will become the focus of the trial.
You got it.

I suppose anytime you shoot someone who does not have a gun or knife, it will be questioned whether you were really shooting in self defense.
Really?

An assault may be an assault based on physical size alone.
That isn't the question. The question is whether imminent danger existed, and that comes down to A. O. J, and P. Go to the link in Post 261 and study it.

You are referring to the concept of disparity of force: Size, gender, comparative fitness, and numbers can enter into it. But it's often a tough defense.
 
There were so many opportunities for Zimmerman to avoid what led to this shooting...
TriTone, I don't think it involves too much speculation to say you are correct here. And I can tell you that I (as a careful, lawful gun owner) therefore find Z's actions embarrassing...or maybe infuriating. But that is different than saying what he did was criminal--which of course is yet to be determined.

I have said before that I think there may be SD shootings where there is no crime, yet the shooting was so "avoidable" that a civil monetary judgment would be just. To the extent that SYG laws may prevent that type of criminal-no/liable-yes split-decision, they may not allow for a just resolution in those cases.
Profiling??
IHMO, this is such a confusing political word it may not be useful for discussion. We have decided as a society that it is not ethical to profile because of race; "profiling" for other reasons may be legitimate and useful, if profliling means singling out for attention, not arrest.

Shoobee, police have many other options (question, detain, etc.) that can be used under suspicious circumstances before actual crime is seen. So calling them before you see a crime can easily make sense.
I always thought self defense was ok anywhere.
Self-defense is "usually" okay. Anyone who has played legal "what-if" hypotheticals realizes that shooting someone in true self-defense is no perfect bar to being convicted. A lot depends on what you can prove (or at least show preponderant evidence for).

Even if the evidence is with him, however, a shooter's claim does not establish SD. Eventually, though, someone will decide that.
I suppose anytime you shoot someone who does not have a gun or knife
Shooting an unarmed person in self-defense will get more scrutiny. And it should. But shooting an unarmed attacker is justifiable in several circumstances.

Even if the press doesn't understand that. ;)
 
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The Feds are looking into the possibility of filing so-called hate crime charges against Zimmerman.

Have the Supremes looked at hate crime legislation to see if it is Constitutional? I would think all violent crimes are hate crimes and a convicted felon should not receive an extra heavy punishment based on the race of the victim.
 
Why do you think they added the "Zimmerman profiled" part in the affidavit. I guarantee it was to imply Zimmerman followed Martin based solely on his racial bias against Martin so they could pursue a federal case based on Martin's civil rights.
 
Seems like "profiled" was an easy finding of fact. Although technically it is an opinion.

There was no crime reported in progress. This is a fact.

The neighborhood watch volunteer stated a suspicion based on past events in his neighborhood. This is also a fact.

"Profiled" was a very acute observation by the special prosecutor.

It is part of what makes this situation so complex.
 
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"Profiled" was a very acute observation by the special prosecutor.
It is not an "observation," but a conclusion. No one but a jury may "find facts," unless Z waives jury trial. If "profiled" is accurate, that is specifically because, as I said, it is a nebulous word. The affidavit does NOT state that Maritn was racially profiled.
 
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Any report or investigation is going to be divided into "findings of fact" and "opinions."

Findings of fact happen more than you think.
 
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