BP Defense Gun Question

StrawHat said:

Anybody shot the 40 grain charge of 777 with a round ball over a chronograph? As big a fan of the round ball as I am, it is nowhere near what the 45 long Colt is, ballistically.

With the 45 long Colt, black powder and a 260 grain lead bullet I get about 950 fps from a 5 1/2" revolver.

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StrawHat a bad guy is really not going to care about what a chronograph says about BP and a roundball vs .45LC. (Personally I could care less what a chronograph says about roundball. All I have to do is visit the Gettysburg cemetary to see actual results.) A bad guy is not going to care about if you hold a BP revolver or a modern gun. I have a Hi Point C9. I love that pistol! Now, it has jammed numerous times on me. My Brass Frame 1858 w/8" barrel has yet to fail me. (I know there are those that would say because it's a brass frame I should never rely on it for SD/HD). Anyone starring at the business end of my Remington (unless they are high or drunk) will think very carefully about their next move.

StrawHat said:

Anybody shot the 40 grain charge of 777 with a round ball over a chronograph? As big a fan of the round ball as I am, it is nowhere near what the 45 long Colt is, ballistically.
With the 45 long Colt, black powder and a 260 grain lead bullet I get about 950 fps from a 5 1/2" revolver.

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mec chronographed some 35 grain loads of 777:

mec Post#4 said:

It can be kind of odd stuff. I was shooting a .457 ball in my Remington/Uberti and it was spactic at any charge beneath 35 grains. It liked that charge fine:

35 Gr/Vol. H777 1061 28(spread)
A couple of charges worked well with the RamLok Bullet:
RamLok 194 Grain Bullet
30 Gr/Vol. H777 937 30
35 Gr/Vol. H777 1106 33

35gr/vol seems to be the majic number with my ruger old army and .457 balls:
35 Grains Swiss FFFg 1088 90spread 376 ft.lbs.
35 Gr/Vol.H777 1046 89spread ................340
35 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P 992 88 spread......313

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=239538&highlight=velocity

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Black powder pistols are very deadly and more than adaquite for self defense. My Remingtons never choke on caps and are accurate if I do my part. The only time I would consider them inadaquite would be if I were up against gang bangers using hi cap glocks. My cap and ball revolvers go with me on hikes and fishing trips and I'm confident that they would handle any two or four legged trouble I might encounter save a large bear.

Don

Yeah but Donny if there is a group of gang-bangers all pointing their guns at you, IMHO the SMART thing to do is run. OTOH the chances of a group of gang bangers all coming at you with their guns is even less than actually having to defend yourself against a single BG.

You couldn't be more right Rogue.

Don

The problem with the question of self defense is there is no real answer, every situation is different, every wound is different. When KenHulme started this thread he said he fended off intruders with a large knife, so in that situation a knife was good enough. If you look at history in law enforcement they have not carried the biggest and badest guns yet it is there job to go into dangerous situations every day, look at the wells fargo .31 used for concealed carry by some officers, or the pocket police .36 or the .36 cal the navy used, all of these men could be facing down guys with walkers and dragons, or in more modern times the 38 special or the 9mm not exactly powerhouses, yet they go into dangerous situations every day. most go thru their whole life as a peace officer and never have to shoot anyone some probably never even take it out of the holster, so just having a gun in your hand gives you a certain amount of protection, as for stopping power, do a search, i did and have seen figures that 85% of people that are shot survive, stories of people being shot 20 times and living to tell about it, some people survive multiple sots from a large caliber gun and some die from a single shot from a .22. If you look at any war ever fought the number of wounded greatly out numbers the number killed. I have seen figures that in the civil war 200 rounds per kill and in Viet nam 200.000 rounds per kill. I you go on the naa web site you will see their idea is no one wants to be shot by a gun of any kind. Most intruders want your stuff and would just as soon you not be their, they aren’t looking for a confrontation, they don’t want to get shot and they don’t want to be captured, you could probably control the situation just as well by shooting a round thru the floor or in the mattress, because they most likely wont be hanging around. I have a alarm system, a camera system and a dog, that is my first line of defense, my guns are plan B and the one I shoot the best is my defense gun. and always goes to the range with me. If you have to ask others if what you use is good enough that means you are not confident in your choice or ability to use it.

I think he was asking how long he could keep it loaded. He hasn't been on here since Mar 30.When he explained why he was using bp though he didnt have to.

Yes, a black powder weapon is lethal, but so is a crossbow, a sword or a vial of anthrax...does that make those items a smart choice for defense?

Who would trust their lives to ONLY 150 year old medical technology? Some people, maybe, but not many. So why would you trust your life to only 150 year old firearms technology? At least move up to the 1870's when they had cartridges. BPML can't be unloaded (except by firing) - that's what I don't like. (As always, jmo )

"Anybody shot the 40 grain charge of 777 with a round ball over a chronograph? As big a fan of the round ball as I am, it is nowhere near what the 45 long Colt is, ballistically."

I dunno man, if someone were to shoot 40 grains of Triple Seven and a roundball (or a conical if you could fit it) at a bad guy he'd probably need to change his shorts. A remmy can be loaded pretty hot, close to .45 ACP, .44 Special, or even .45 Colt ballistics I suspect. Someday I will own a Chronograph and a steel framed New Model Army and I'll be able to test this for myself. But until then I still feel pretty safe having my Remmy by my bedside, I've seen what it can do.

If you'd use a .380, .22 LR or magnum, 9mm, .38 special, .32 ACP, .25 ACP for self defense you still are going to kill if you nail the bad guy in the heart or brain. Are they the most effective rounds? No. Can they kill a bad guy given you properly place your shot(s)? Yep. Plenty have been killed by a .22 short, and that's the smallest caliber you can get. I heard about some teen that got killed because his friend shot him with one of those Aguila pipsqueak rounds just to see what would happen, there probably was beer or pot involved I would imagine.

The gun I usually carry when I go to check the trot line isn't a big .44, it's my NAA Super Companion. I know it's only a .22 Magnum equivalent percussion revolver, but I know how to shoot with it and could easily defend myself with the little single action. The other bonus is it is really, really, loud with 2 grains of Bullseye. If I were to touch that gun off in the general direction of a bad guy he'd probably turn around and start running. But my Remington is louder and more powerful, indeed a better weapon.

My point is that if you have a gun, know how to shoot it accurately and effectively, and you are comfortable with it, and you choose it as a defensive weapon, then by all means use it if you need to. I am not saying there isn't better weapons than a blackpowder revolver, but if you know how to shoot effectively then you will have a very lethal self defense weapon. Of course it all comes down to the shooter and what he/she is capable of, heck maybe the bad guy has never fired a gun before in his life and just wants to rob, rape, or harm you.

I highly doubt that bad guys ever get out to the range to practice on human silhouettes. But if it were me, I'd choose my New Model Army. The boom would make them soil themselves or scare them away, the bullet has quite some force behind it, and the big bore and fat cylinder just looks nasty on the other end.

Just my two cents.

Levi

I completely trust my life in my Brass Frame Remington. I have YET to have a miss-fire or a hang-fire or a chain-fire. I literally spent weeks studying YouTube videos and forums before I went out to the range. I practiced with that revolver many times. I am trained with it. Besides that, carrying such a large revolver has one HUGE (pun intended) feature: it has loads of intimidation. Any BG that sees me walking somewhere carrying this large gun will think twice before coming at me.

Rogue Coder said:

I completely trust my life in my Brass Frame Remington. I have YET to have a miss-fire or a hang-fire or a chain-fire. I literally spent weeks studying YouTube videos and forums before I went out to the range. I practiced with that revolver many times. I am trained with it. Besides that, carrying such a large revolver has one HUGE (pun intended) feature: it has loads of intimidation. Any BG that sees me walking somewhere carrying this large gun will think twice before coming at me.

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Same here. It goes boom and will kill anything short of griz with a well placed shot. It's my handgun of choice, and if someone were to break through my back door that would be the gun I'd grab. It's got a big bore, big holes on the cylinder, and looks like a magnum handgun. No question whether or not the caliber begins in 4 when you are looking down the barrel.

The best defense gun anyone can own is one they are most proficient with. It's easy to see where people can say bp handguns are a poor choice for personal defense but I have to disagree. I have never had not the first misfire with my 58 Remington and no cap jams. To me it's just as reliable as any other gun in my house. As of right now I have a conversion cylinder in it with 250 gr .45 colt. Either way I wouldn't feel unarmed with it at all, I'd hate to know I was staring down the barrel of a c&b revolver or any gun as a matte of fact. The bottom line is use what you are most accurate with and most confident in. If that is a cap and ball revolver then that's good enough. For me im using my big 12 ga automatic but if I got to my remmy I'd feel just as good as josey wales

Rogue Coder Quote:
StrawHat a bad guy is really not going to care about what a chronograph says about BP and a roundball vs .45LC. (Personally I could care less what a chronograph says about roundball. All I have to do is visit the Gettysburg cemetary to see actual results.) A bad guy is not going to care about if you hold a BP revolver or a modern gun. I have a Hi Point C9. I love that pistol! Now, it has jammed numerous times on me. My Brass Frame 1858 w/8" barrel has yet to fail me. (I know there are those that would say because it's a brass frame I should never rely on it for SD/HD). Anyone starring at the business end of my Remington (unless they are high or drunk) will think very carefully about their next move.

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Most of the graves in Gettysburg were filled because of either the Minie bullet or infection. Check the records, very few documented revolver casulties. And the paper cartridges for the revolvers used a conical bullet.

I wasn't asking about the BGs reaction to a chronograph, I wanted that info for myself. As I said, I am a fan of the roundball, preferring it to the conical of the same era. But I know the black powder loading in the 45 long Colt will penetrate a white tailed deer from chest to ham. I also know a round ball will not.

How many people stared " ...at the buisnees end of your Remington... "?

articap,

Thank you for that information.

Yes thanks man! I didn't realize the ballistics were so close to 45.