Reloading for conversion cylinders

i have a few different molds i use. one of my favorite is the
lee 452-255 rf.
If you are going to use smokeless in a revolver that was meant for black powder the only powder i will and have used is trail boss.
link to molds
http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/hand-gun-bullet-molds/bullet-mold-double-cavity/
as for the trail boss 6 grains

LEE 452-255-RF and 6.5 gr. Unique
778 FPS at 9849 PSI

So could you shoot Winchester super match 38 specials in a conversion kit, they are 710 fps 148 gr bullet but couldn't find the pressure.
Edit for junkman 1851 Uberti steel frame .36 cal with conversion cylinder.

Not in a .45 Colt cylinder you can't!

Not in a .45 Colt cylinder you can't!

Click to expand...

Should not have posted when I saw you on the thread. :banghead:

That'll teach ya.

TomADC said:

So could you shoot Winchester super match 38 specials in a conversion kit, they are 710 fps 148 gr bullet but couldn't find the pressure.
Edit for junkman 1851 Uberti steel frame .36 cal with conversion cylinder.

Click to expand...

Those rounds should be safe in the conversion you referenced.

TomADC, contact the maker of your kit, or visit their webpage.


kohana,

I'm not a big fan of Titegroup as it is so dense and dirty, and I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner, but that's what that guy used:
http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/June04/index.htm

Otherwise Hodgdon's data center has lots of loads, they used to have a "Cowboy" section with all the LRNFP bullets and loads, which are now mixed with other bullets:
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
They must have a downloadable basic manual somewhere.

alliantpowder has a specific section and you can download their pdf file:
http://outdoorwriters.atk.com/resource_library/catalogs/AlliantPowderCatalog.pdf

From kirstkonverter front page:
The cartridge conversions are rated "For Black Powder or equivalent loads only," which includes the current Cowboy Loads on the market.
Ammunition must be loaded with lead bullets and a low-pressure, powder charge that DOES NOT EXCEED 1000 FEET PER SECOND VELOCITY!
NOT FOR USE IN BRASS FRAME REVOLVERS!

I've been using Trail Boss lately, mainly in 45 LC, its a bulky powder and as such when using in for cowboy loads it fills the case even when used in mild loads.
Reason I asked about the 38 special match ammo is I have 11 new boxes I don't plan on using for target any more. Be fun to shoot it in a conversion they are mild.

I just got through loading up some of my BigLube 220 grainers for my ROA Kirst Conversion. Loaded them with 6 grains trailboss. I'm anxious to see how they shoot and group.

8 grains of unique or universal clays 200to 250 grain bullet

Most accurate (for POA) in Pietta with Kirst .45 LC conversion for me, are Saeco cast .452" diameter, 185 grain SWC and 6.5 grains of Trail Boss powder.

The heavier the boolit, the higher it shoots, with 255 grains shooting the highest. The .45 LC case loaded with round balls is dead on and seems to have highest velocity.

IIRC, the Pietta rifling twist is pretty slow (Uberti is faster) and doesn't stablize heavy boolits too well.

bubba15301 said:

8 grains of unique or universal clays 200to 250 grain bullet

Click to expand...

8 grains of Unique under a 250 grain bullet is too hot to be considered 'Cowboy' ammo. It's over 14000 PSI. These conversions should be kept under/at 10000 PSI. With a lighter bullet, say 200 grains or so, it is OK.

Huh.
Used to shoot 9 grains Unique behind a 240 gr LSWC at pins. Was "a little flippy" out of my stainless 4" 629, and I wondered once how it would handle in an R&D cylinder in my 8" NMA.

Now I know it would be TFD.
Thanks. Seriously.

8 grains of Unique under a 250 grain bullet is too hot to be considered 'Cowboy' ammo. It's over 14000 PSI. These conversions should be kept under/at 10000 PSI. With a lighter bullet, say 200 grains or so, it is OK.

Click to expand...

+++1!!!

Conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remington are clearly marked as only being suitable for 'Cowboy' loads in 45 Colt. Unfortunately there are no official pressure standards for 'Cowboy' ammo. But under their Cowboy section, Alliant lists the maximum load for 45 Colt and Unique as 8.5 grains under a 230 grain bullet. Not under a 250 grain bullet. Personally, I would throttle back a bit from that. My standard 45 Colt load with Smokeless powder is 7.5 grains of Unique under a 250 grain bullet. I would not have any qualms about shooting that out of a conversion cylinder in a 1858 Remmie.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=5&weight=230&shellid=15&bulletid=15

Same with Trailboss. Trailboss is not a Black Powder substitute and should not be treated as one. It develops a sharp pressure spike just like most other Smokeless powders. If using Trailboss in a conversion cylinder for the 1858 Remington, I strongly advise staying between the minimum load and about halfway up the scale to the Max load.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

The conversion cylinder have been on the market for WAY longer than the word "Cowboy" has been in use to describe a specific loading...

The conversions have always been rated for any standard 45 colt load shooting lead bullets at 1000fps or less. I have always thought this was hot and most standard 45Colt loads aren't loaded to 1000fps.

Heavy bullets just seem like too much for my Rem58 and They sure don't hit to the POA.

I find the best loads with my Pietta 1858 Remington with a 5 round Kirst Konverter is the .451 230gr. xtp over a light book load of titetgroup or unique. I know it is a jacketed bullet, but it gives great preformance and accuracy, and it is still way within the pressure limits.

TrailBoss works well and so does Blackhorn209... both these powders are more spendy but they do prevent double charges.

The conversion cylinder have been on the market for WAY longer than the word "Cowboy" has been in use to describe a specific loading...

The conversions have always been rated for any standard 45 colt load shooting lead bullets at 1000fps or less. I have always thought this was hot and most standard 45Colt loads aren't loaded to 1000fps.

Bullets over 200gr just seem like too much for my Rem58 and They sure don't hit to the POA.

I find the best loads with my Pietta 1858 Remington with a 5 round Kirst Konverter is 200gr. xtp over a light book load of titetgroup or unique. I know it is a jacketed bullet, but it gives great preformance and accuracy, and it is still way within the pressure limits.

TrailBoss works well and so does Blackhorn209... both these powders are more spendy but they do prevent double charges.

Click to expand...

Here is a scan of the little pamphlet that came with one of my R&D cylinders for one of my 1858 Remmies. It is quite specific about what Smokeless loads they recommend.






P.S.

I repeat what I stated earlier about Trailboss. Trailboss is not a Black Powder substitute. Blackhorn 209 is a Black Powder substitute and can be loaded like Black Powder. But Trailboss is a Smokeless powder. It must be loaded just like any other Smokeless powder, following the manufacturer's recommendations. Yes, it was specifically formulated to be very bulky, but not to prevent overloads. It was formulated to be bulky so that light loads in large capacity cases such as 45 Colt would not leave so much air space that the powder burned inefficiently, which is the problem when loading light loads in large cases with most conventional powders. Most powders perform badly when loaded lightly in large capacity cases such as 45 Colt because of the excess empty space in the cartridge. That is why Trailboss was developed, for light loadings in large capacity cases. It was not meant to be a Black Powder substitute, and filling the case with Trailboss without regard for the manufacturer's specific recommendations about exactly how much powder to use is a bad idea and contrary to Trailboss's design purpose.

The Kirst was (is?) also made for the 45ACP,,,and I know this 45acp load is way hotter (higher pressure) than a 45C...And there is no 45acp ammo (that I am aware of), that is listed as "Cowboy"....the guns and cylinders still hold the 45acp pressure just fine.

That being said I sure don't think guys should try to make magnums out of cap&balls....but the ultra week, mouse phart cowboy gamer loads are not even close to the power you get from standard 45C's or 45acp's and the full 45C case holding 35-40grains of real black powder behind a 250gr cast bullet really booms and has lots more power than the "Cowboy" ammo.

You will not have any problems if you follow published standard 45 colt loading data using cast bullets in the conversions. The data in loading manuals listed as safe for blackpowder era guns will be safe in the Konversion. (Ruger/TC loads will blow up your gun!!)

Cartridge overall length will be your limiting problem so use light weight bullets and check them for length before you load a bunch of them. That is why I use the .451 230gr xtp as it is made for the 45acp and has no crimp groove.

Kirst conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remmie chambered for 45 Colt only have five chambers and a small dummy chamber. This means the cylinder walls are thicker than the six chamber R&D cylinder. With the thin walled R&D cylinder, which is the cylinder that is referred to in the pamphlet I scanned, the chamber walls are much thinner. That is why they are recommending 'cowboy loads' for that cylinder.

Do not be confused about commercial 'cowboy loads'. They are not mouse pharts. Reloads created by some Cowboy shooters are indeed mouse pharts, approaching a mild 38 Special in power. Commercial 'cowboy loads' are not that anemic. The 7.5 grain Unique load I mentioned under a 250 grain bullet is not a mouse fart and is a perfectly respectable load, and will be safe to fire in a six chamber R&D 45 Colt conversion cylinder.

Yeah R&D 6 round conversion is very thin...looks scary thin!! The 7.5 Unique load is plenty powerful that is for sure..NO mouse Phart there.

Can't make it to the range until next Monday but loaded up 50 45 LC using Trail Boss 4.9 grs and a cast 255 gr bullet. I'll run these thru my Pietta with a Krist kit. I but load up 50 with Clays 4.5 grs 230 gr cast bullet and thats the reason I switched to trail Boss the clays just looks lost in the big case where the Trail Boss is easy to eyeball during loading.

Anyone load for 45 acp in a conversion cylinder?

Hope this works;
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp