I never knew I had so many anti friends until today...

It's a shame that nobody's talking about the cause of this tragedy. It could be a great opportunity to address mental illness.

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I don't really go for using 'mental illness' as a blanket term to cover anything and everything people do that's outside an arbitrary standard, so I'm definitely going to wait for if/when an actual psychiatrist makes an official statement in that regard.

People have free will, and that means they have the potential to do evil, abhorrent things. Making the choice to do evil things just makes someone evil, it doesn't make them necessarily mentally ill.

Float Pilot, I am a gun owning (and using) liberal so please don't paint all liberals with the same brush. We find it distressing and distasteful. I am my own master and certainly not a "sheeple". Please stay on the High Road.
Finally some folks here are touching on what concerns me most; why do things like this happen? It's easy to call folks who do horrible things nut cases but doesn't tell us why they're nut cases.
I guess I always ask naysayers if we should ban or regulate kitchen knives because someone a few blocks from me stabbed his girlfriend to death. They need to understand that a firearm is a tool just like a knife is a tool.

I can't understand some of my friends who are seemingly intelligent. They refuse to understand that criminals and crazies do not obey gun laws nor magazine capacity restrictions. Why is this fact so hard for some to grasp?

When that large mob occupies your neighborhood, and decides they deserve your private property more than you do, you'll want that hi-cap mag.

Jinx D'jinn said:

Float Pilot, I am a gun owning (and using) liberal so please don't paint all liberals with the same brush. We find it distressing and distasteful. I am my own master and certainly not a "sheeple". Please stay on the High Road.
Finally some folks here are touching on what concerns me most; why do things like this happen? It's easy to call folks who do horrible things nut cases but doesn't tell us why they're nut cases.
I guess I always ask naysayers if we should ban or regulate kitchen knives because someone a few blocks from me stabbed his girlfriend to death. They need to understand that a firearm is a tool just like a knife is a tool.

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This could not have been prevented. As unfortunate as it is, this is what happens as a consequence of having the freedom and a system in place that will allow anyone with a clean background to own a gun.

The guy bought his AR legally, and was deemed clean by the NICS to get it.

What could have the system do to prevent this guy from suddenly snapping? I don't think there is a reasonable answer to this.

Interesting article about European (and specifically UK) violence stats: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Funny how countries that don't allow citizens to own firearms have the most violent predatory crime

It's a shame that nobody's talking about the cause of this tragedy. It could be a great opportunity to address mental illness.

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True, to a point. Preliminary indications are that this guy had no history of mental problems that would in any way have indicated he was planning something like this. Unfortunately, you can't detect evil.

Also, something about the Batman cultural phenomenon seems to bring out the nutball extremes. Some fans waited in line for days waiting for opening night tickets, and I heard on the national news (FWIW) that critics who panned the movie actually were receiving death threats from outraged fans.

There's something very wrong, here! :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Pilot said:

I can't understand some of my friends who are seemingly intelligent. They refuse to understand that criminals and crazies do not obey gun laws nor magazine capacity restrictions. Why is this fact so hard for some to grasp?

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What good is intelligence when a person is unable or unwilling to use it, due to their emotional reaction? Aside from this, the main problem is that in typical fashion they're ignoring the evil act of the murderer and placing the blame primarily on his weapons, which happen to be guns, and I think this is largely due to media propaganda (now and cumulatively for many years leading up to this).

fehhkk said:

This could not have been prevented. As unfortunate as it is, this is what happens as a consequence of having the freedom and a system in place that will allow anyone with a clean background to own a gun.

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I agree that this tragedy could not have been prevented (except possibly by armed citizens among the potential victims--probably none here, as in most cases), but I wouldn't focus on the legality of owning guns. The criminal in this case, for example, would have obtained guns regardless of legality, and if guns were somehow unavailable, then he would have used other weapons to murder people--bombs, for example, are illegal but can be easily improvised, and can be used in mass murders regardless of the law. In cases like this one, the law can only diminish the rights of law-abiding citizens rather than criminals.

fehhkk said:

What could have the system do to prevent this guy from suddenly snapping? I don't think there is a reasonable answer to this.

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All of the reasonable and obvious precautions have already been taken (in addition to some unreasonable ones). Sometimes bad things happen anyway, and attempting to further disarm the population would do absolutely nothing to address the problem (except to make it worse). The latter may seem highly ironic to the uninitiated, but as explained above, laws cannot disarm those who intend to commit murder, only the potential victims.

Man my Facebook feed has been stuffed with people talking about concealed carry, "gun free zones", and so on.

Why is it whenever there is a shooting spree, they (anti's) want to take everyone ELSE's guns away?

The immediate reaction to ban guns is a completely emotional response born of fear and anger at such a tragedy. Unfortunately, I've never seen logic and rationality be able to do much except further anger the emotionally charged individual. All the facts in the world are not going to mean anything until the emotionality of this tragedy has ebbed a bit and people are ready to look at it in a more pragmatic way.

It is important to let people know that gun owners are just as angry and saddened by this tragedy as the non-gun owners, and that we are respectful of the victims. Combating misinformation needs to be done in very thoughtful and respectful ways. I believe gun owners have a real chance to make a positive difference here, but can do a lot of damage if they aren't careful.

I think the most important thing to do is just let your "friends" know that you are a gun-owner and support the 2nd amendment. Don't try to argue.

The problem is that anti's don't know anyone that owns guns, or don't know that they know anyone. So when they talk about gun control, in their eyes, it only affects the nameless, unknown, "nutcase" strangers out in the world. Just like any other political issue, if it hits closer to home, than they will show more empathy.

Just like when the issue of concealed carry comes up, people say they just don't feel comfortable with the idea of people walking around with guns. I'll ask, well what about me? They say, well that's okay, I know you. You seem responsible enough. And I respond, that I am not the exception to the rule, I am a typical permit holder.

Idiots without a clue

...

Just tell your anti-gun crowd IF BG's would just obey the_law "thall shall not kill", etc., etc., there would be no need for SD/HD weapons..

That's that's the problem, not the guns..

Obey the_law, like GG's do, the same as the anti's BUT - when

Well, we understand how the_system (real world) really works "and fails"

Tell them, while you're at it, if what they propose will really work, then we should take away all cars so to stop all the madness and mayhem of Drunk Driving.. It's the cars fault -

I think I know how they would react to that.. (no, that's not right)


Ls

Perhaps it might help to point out that the worse mass murder in US history was the Happy Land Fire of 1990:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

Also, tell about how an armed citizens have stopped mass shootings:

http://www.burnscustom.com/articles/ayoobinvasion.html

If that won't help then nothing will. They are beyond the pale of reason.

Unfortunately terrible things like this will happen as long as there are evil people in the world. It is easier to blame guns than to admit that there are such evil people out there. More gun control is not the answer, if the shooter didn’t get his AR15 from a gun store he would have bought an AK on the black market or made a bomb with instructions from the internet. The only way to prevent such things from happening is to give people the ability to defend themselves. But the fact of the matter is it that this is now a political issue, it’s an election year and our current president has little to show why we should reelect him. This issue presents an ideal distraction because it plays on people’s emotions rather than logic “Vote for me if you want to be safe.” Another sad fact is that if the shooter had used a different method this wouldn’t be gating as much attention, everybody’s heard of Columbine but what about the Bath School disaster?

Reason and logic dont mean anything anymore. Simple as that.

This is what the Huffington Post is saying

Colorado shooting suspect James Holmes purchased 6,000 rounds of ammunition, along with four guns, online in the weeks leading up to the tragic event that claimed numerous lives and left dozens injured at a movie theater outside Denver.

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It is clearly false reporting but even if it is retracted the damage is done. Our friends and neighbors and even some of our own are trying to rationalize and compromise some sort of "reasonable control".
My reply is to ask them if the gov has been able to stem the flow of drugs across our borders?(guns will be the next contraban coming this way) And if Mexico, Cent/South American countries that have strict gun laws and prohibitions are safer than here. It may be a different answer if we were an Island next to Japan but that is not the case.

X-Rap said:

This is what the Huffington Post is saying

It is clearly false reporting but even if it is retracted the damage is done. Our friends and neighbors and even some of our own are trying to rationalize and compromise some sort of "reasonable control".
My reply is to ask them if the gov has been able to stem the flow of drugs across our borders?(guns will be the next contraban coming this way) And if Mexico, Cent/South American countries that have strict gun laws and prohibitions are safer than here. It may be a different answer if we were an Island next to Japan but that is not the case.

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According to USA Today, he obtained the AR and the Rem870 from a Bass Pro Shop and a Gander Mountain. I tend not to read the HuffPost as they're extremely cynical in their reporting.

I've been reading this post and watching Fox, CNN, ABC, and others, and one question comes to mind,.... Dose any one remember the old adage, "When(if) guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."? I guess these anti-gun folks that want to ban guns believe that if guns are banned, these criminals and nutcases who already have guns illegally, will turn their guns in too. They need to wake up and realize that someone determined to break a law and kill or rob someone, isn't going to be concerned about breaking one more law and keep a gun.

POINT TO PONDER...... Isn't wanting to ban firearms (which violates our 2nd amendment rights) and calling yourself a 'Liberal', being a hipocrit?

According to USA Today, he obtained the AR and the Rem870 from a Bass Pro Shop and a Gander Mountain. I tend not to read the HuffPost as they're extremely cynical in their reporting.

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I know where he got the guns and the reporter probably did as well, my point is that people do read the Huffington post and do take what they see as well reported news. My interest in their reporting is much the same as anyone would have interest in their enemies views and motives. USA Today is probably not a stellar news agency either.

Those people are dead and wounded BECAUSE THEY OBEYED THE LAW. The theater is posted no-guns. They obeyed the law, and were unarmed. The theater did not alarm emergency exits. These alarms could have simply gone of like regular alarms, or at a managers station to alert of kids trying to sneak their buddies in, SOMETHING. The theater deliberately disarmed their patrons and provided no means to ensure their safety.
To answer a couple of pundits, some old posters I did years ago,

Those people are dead and wounded BECAUSE THEY OBEYED THE LAW. The theater is posted no-guns. They obeyed the law, and were unarmed. The theater did not alarm emergency exits.

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I am not sure if the theater is actually posted or not. If it is, and a legal permit holder did not bring his/her firearm to the movie because it was posted and wound up shot, it could make for a very interesting lawsuit. The argument will be that the permit holder didn't HAVE to go to the theater, but a case could be made that denying the right to protect oneself creates liability for the theater. That's a lot of "if's" though.

I'm pushing 60, and have little time for simpletons. These "critics" just don't understand that it is a civic DUTY to protect one's self, and those around them. Obviously, the cops are not everywhere, all the time, so that is of little consolation when an idiot comes out of hiding and starts shooting. Even an off duty cop could have ended the rampage, but none was there. The police are NOT ENOUGH. So, the INTELLIGENT critic of the Aurora shooting might WELCOME the presence of a legitimately armed and courageous citizen. In a world gone mad, a person can condemn guns, and pretend they will go away (like drugs and alcohol, right?), or take a more pragmatic approach and prepare to defend society by being responsibly armed, and mentally prepared for the civic duty to defend self and others.

M&P, it was reported from GOA the theater has been confirmed as being a posted criminal empowerment zone. Since I can't run up and check the doors myself, , I took them at their word.
I'd like to see that lawsuit, as the fall out could be very interesting.

Don357 said:

I've been reading this post and watching Fox, CNN, ABC, and others, and one question comes to mind,.... Dose any one remember the old adage, "When(if) guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."?

POINT TO PONDER...... Isn't wanting to ban firearms (which violates our 2nd amendment rights) and calling yourself a 'Liberal', being a hipocrit?

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Yes! I don't get the weird mix between the two main parties...but i won't derail by going into it.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

RetiredUSNChief said:

Unfortunately, you cannot "educate" someone who has already made up their mind. You can only stand your ground on logic and evidence and leave it at that.

:banghead:

Perhaps you could have some fun, occasionally. For instance, have these people imagine that idiot walking into a packed theater and opening fire, only to discover that every adult there was a law abiding citizen carrying a concealed weapon?

I seriously doubt his body armor would have done him any good, except to save a part of his chest for a doctor to put a stethoscope on in order to pronounce him DOA.

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I'm through trying to educate anti-gun types, it's a waste of time. They've made up their minds and we've made up ours. We hold the line and frequently go on the offensive and win legislatively because they don't vote or lobby single issues like we do.

If I learned anything from the last 24 hours, it is that way too many people have way too much faith in government.


I am not a government hater. We need one. We need one to provide certain functions, specifically to address market failures. But the idea that government can solve all things and be the answer to all people is ludicrous and is the basic principle behind the anti argument.

I own one 'assault rifle' using the definition thrown around by the media. It goes bang. I never shoot it. I doubt I will ever need it. I don't have any desire to own more. I like my levers and my off the wall caliber deer rifles a lot more. I own a lot of pistols but only shoot one semi regularly. But I know the government will not always be there for me. I have lived thru a hurricane and major tornadoes. I have lived in the most active earthquake zone in North America. I have friends that spent days stranded in Katrina. I watched the Rodney King riots on TV. I spend a lot of my time in a place where emergency response is at least 30 minutes away. Never mind the protection from a tyrranical government argument(which I do believe was the intent). How about my own protection?