Aurora=Colorado Springs - CCW?

berettaprofessor · Jul 25, 2012

My response in another thread promped me to look up the details on the 2007 Colorado Springs shooting at the New Life Church. There, shooter Matthew Murray killed two and wounded two before being shot by a volunteer security officer who was carrying. He then killed himself. The parallels with Aurora were striking:

1) The site was a church with the victims lined up in pews; very like the movie theater.
2) Murray had an "an assault rifle." It was either an AK-47 or a Bushmaster XM15 (he owned both and I can't find which one was used).
3)Murray had 2 handguns during the assault. The handguns were a Beretta 40 cal and a Beretta 22 cal. He also owned a 9 mm handgun.
4) Murray had smoke bombs with him.
5) Murray was carrying over 1000 rounds of ammo. He had a lot more stacked up at home.

Sound familiar? Helpless victims in rows, assault rifle, two handguns, smoke bombs, lots of ammo?

The only difference was a CCW holder was present and stopped the attack, wounding Murray. We should be trumpeting this one to the skies. I'd ask why the media hasn't made the connection, but then I already know that answer.

berettaprofessor · Jul 25, 2012

Finally found the real details of the Colorado Springs shooting here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings

He used the Bushmaster XM15 and the handguns were the Beretta 40 and the Springfield 9mm pistol he owned.

Trent · Jul 25, 2012

Brilliant find. Thank you for sharing, already cited this in an active debate I'm having.

altitude_19 · Jul 25, 2012

Was the theater a "gun free zone"?

Trent · Jul 25, 2012

The theater was posted no firearms, from what I understand. The sign didn't have legal weight, but to your average Joe... if it says no guns, that means no guns.

altitude_19 · Jul 26, 2012

That strikes me as the sort of thing that would make a great circulation over social media. WE NEED A PHOTO of that sign (that specific sign on that specific theater) to slap all over Facebook. Throw the theater to the wolves, as it were. Can anybody get a picture of that sign?

MachIVshooter · Jul 26, 2012

Can anybody get a picture of that sign?

It's right across the highway from The Firing Line; Next time I'm up that way, I'll try to remember to get a snapshot.

altitude_19 · Jul 26, 2012

It's right across the highway from The Firing Line; Next time I'm up that way, I'll try to remember to get a snapshot.

WE OWE YOU BIG. Just step lightly. No crossing yellow tape to get it.

hso · Jul 26, 2012

Not to get too off point, but can we, as supposedly knowledgable gun owners, stop misapplying the term "assault rifle"? Unless the weapon is capable of being fired in burst or full auto it is just a semiautomatic rifle patterned after an assault rifle.

The parallels are strong between the Co Springs shooting and Aurora. Do we know why Murray came to the church that day? Did he have any personal relationship with anyone attending or was it impersonal. His just picking a place that would have a large group of people available to attack would strengthen the relationship with Holmes who had no relationship with anyone in the theater.

The Knoxville Unitarian Church shooting is similar in that there was no one at the church that the shooter knew, although his ex-wife had some previous involvement that had stopped months before. He picked it as someplace "liberals" would be gathered. He burst in with a shotgun during a children's play and began firing at the audience. At a pause a friend of mine and others in the congregation rushed him and subdued him as other people fled.

These cases where there's no personal relationship with someone at the location and the shooter is stopped bear the strongest arguments in our favor.

Trent · Jul 26, 2012

HSO; personally, I think the reason for this is "assault rifle" is shorter, and not quite as ugly as "assault weapon." Automatic rifle or autoloading rifle would both work (they are automatic, after all - just not fully).

Language is just a tool to identify objects and concepts; I would wager that 100% of gun owners, and non-gun owners alike, know what we're referring to when someone says "assault rifle". In this context, of conveying an idea or concept, it works perfectly. When I think of military assault rifles, I qualify it with "military". Or, more often, I'll use "military small arms" since that more fully addresses the subject matter.

Anyway not to steer too far off the point or arguing for the sake of arguing. I *strongly* disagree with "assault weapon" as that implies it can only be used to kill or attack people. Assault rifle? Maybe, but less so. Automatic rifle conveys the wrong approach. "Semiautomatic rifle patterned after an assault rifle" just takes way too damn long to type.

Back on point, we don't yet know the motivation for Aurora - it might still be possible there is a link. (Employee at the theater, patron, etc). Remember how long it took to uncover the motive behind the DC sniper's random violence trail? Was a long time before we learned the "real" target was an ex-.

We may likely never know for sure.

One fact, involving others at random, makes it a random act of violence with the intention of committing mass murder. Both qualify in that regards.

WinThePennant · Jul 26, 2012

Using the term "assault" when describing a rifle that does not have full-auto fire capabilities (as well as some other identifiers) is inaccurate, a misuse of language, and (worse) using the same terminology that the anti-freedom advocates use to twist public opinion in regards to our Second Amendment freedoms.

EmbarkChief · Jul 26, 2012

I hear what you are saying, same thing happens when the news says "the suspect used an AK-47 in the shooting". The layperson automatically assumes the guy had a full auto AK and that you can pick one up in the local gun store. I like to point out to people that they have never seen in person a "real" AK-47, sometimes they don't even understand the difference.

W.E.G. · Jul 26, 2012

they don't even understand the difference.

True dat.

Intrepid Dad · Jul 26, 2012

HSO said:

The parallels are strong between the Co Springs shooting and Aurora. Do we know why Murray came to the church that day? Did he have any personal relationship with anyone attending or was it impersonal. His just picking a place that would have a large group of people available to attack would strengthen the relationship with Holmes who had no relationship with anyone in the theater.

At the time it was believed that Murray had a problem with a specific ministry, Youth With a Mission (YWAM). The Denver shooting the night before the New Life Shooting was at a YWAM center.

What does this have to do with New Life Church? New Life was a supporter of YWAM so Murray had a beef with the church. As far as I know, he did not know anyone personally at New Life.

Aurora=Colorado Springs - CCW?

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