The biggest joke in the Firearms industry...

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TennJed said:
Oh and I would not call Kel Tec the biggest joke in firearms.
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I wasn't calling Kel-Tec the biggest joke, I was saying the line from their webpage was the joke (the one about meeting demand)

I think Sam has the best explanation so far. I suppose what irks me is that I wouldn't make a marketing push until I was ready to deliver the product. Coming out with a prototype that was made by hand and showing it at an industry show only to push back your production for 1.5 years because of "unforeseen difficulties" is poor business practices. I would have several hundred crates of production weapons sitting in the warehouse ready to ship when I made my announcement. If that meant producing a few hundred and selling at a discounted rate to beta testers then fine, but the heads of the heads my marketing and production teams would roll if they produced the mess that Kel-Tec has over the last couple of years.

I guess it's just different takes on business practices, but this would be a big problem for me if I ran that company.
 
I guess it's just different takes on business practices, but this would be a big problem for me if I ran that company.
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Then you should start your own company. In the meantime, there's a book you can read that addresses this exact subject.
 
Kel-tec puts out their little 9's and not much else. I've seen a couple of the RFB's, but judging from the problems they are still having (years after introduction) they still are not ready for prime time. I've yet to see a KSG in person, and again, I've heard they have problems and aren't yet ready for usage in anything as serious as competition, let alone hunting or HD. I'd love to pick up one of their Sub-2000's that feed from a 9mm Sig magazine, but despite what their website says, I've never seen one, and no one I've met or mentioned has seen one either. And many of their little carry 9's need a "fluff and buff" to work properly.

Innovative designs, poor execution and production.
 
I didn't know that 24/7, but if he copied it he should have done a better job. This brings the seacamp fiasco back to light, remember guys on a 2 year waiting list with $500 down on the gun that never came.I remember buying one at a gun show, right at the peak for 1050.00 and later saying *** did you just do. They almost got away with it again with the 380, but Ruger came along and save us.
Meanwhile Mustangs Ponys and pocket light guns were galloping around with no market, I had all of them at one time, now they are like gold again but fading quicklly. There is no use for a small caliber pistol when they make a smaller gun to take a larger bullet. it just changes the dynamic.
I carry a 9mm now as my BUG, why not, any place I was able to put the LCP, I can put the LC9.It's in my pocket now, I don't feel it so that's a good thing. When people wake up and realise they can now fit a 9mm where the 380, 32, and 25 before that went, they will carry the largest cartridge possible. athe seacamp explosion showed that dynamic to be true beyond anyones wildest dreams.
 
I also heard that manufacture other things, I think stuff for aircraft,
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If that is the case, there is a compelling reason to quit flying immediately.
I wouldn't pay retail for any kel tec product. In fact, after my experience with kel tec you can't give me one.
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Given my experience with four K-T pistols so far, this summarizes it nicely.
 
I can understand Kel-tec wants to protect its long-term prospects by keeping its firearms business small-scale. The machining they use to sell 500$ guns could just as easily be building +10000$ components for their real customers. What I don't get is why they don't just contract some other shop to do the gun-forging. With proper oversight, the same guns would get made, but Kel-tec wouldn't have to risk over-investing in that arm of their business. If the market falls out, they can always dump the contractor, who will then hook up with another corporation.

TCB
 
As Stated a corporation is very hesitant to borrow capital money and invest into a business for a temporary peak in demand. It would take at least a two year demand spike( probably more like five years) for them to even consider investing capital money.
Even if they decided today to expand it would probably take close to a year to get specialized machinery for the expanded manufacturing. Then you would need to hire and train extra employees. New untrained employees means a drop in quality. You would need to take from the existing work force to promote people into management for the new employees. Where can you get trained people to build your specialized product except from within. Right now there is a tremendous shortage of skilled vocational employees.(welders, machinist,mechanics....etc.)
If they needed any super rare raw materials they may not be available.
I was involved with a company that could not expand due to the availability or lack thereof of roller bearings. Our company and Catapillar were the only users of some of the bearings. We got X number per month and that was it. Our company had an airplane on standby to fly the bearings from Timken to our factory as soon as they were manufactured.
It is a very complex problem and not a simple decision.
 
Sam1911 said:
KelTec already has a somewhat mixed reputation. Both very innovative on the one hand, and inexpensive, plastic, and "cheap" on the other. I'm sure they are being VERY careful to get as many bugs worked out of these guns as they possibly can, and make sure that their process can keep up (and improve!) quality at accelerated rates of production. They can't afford to push their market position any further toward the "cheap junk" end of the spectrum.

Further, with any new product there's a painful period of working out the bugs through field-testing. The general idea is to let the "early adopters" run your products into the ground and show you where the deficiencies are. Then you've only got a few thousand guns out there you're responsible for upgrading or replacing when the common defects are figured out. Dumping 100,000 new KSGs onto the market, only to find out that the trigger breaks off at 1,000 rds or whatever, just hurts them. I'm sure KelTec has the patience to let the early adopters do their work, figure out the good and the bad and what needs to be upgraded on the KSG.v2. The rarity and cachet of these seldom-seen guns can only drive the demand crazy, and when they're ready with a fully complete product, they'll rake in the money with the hurdles of beta testing behind them.
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Keep in mind though that Kel-Tec has something that most other gun companies do not -- the creative minds of George Kellgren and his team.

When demand for M1911 pistols grew, other companies just reveres engineered it. Same with the AR-15. Sam with most conventional arms -- there are many choices for essentially the same thing.

Kelt-Tec on the other hand has a number of truly proprietary designs that can't be copied without bumping into patents so the company is afforded a little more of a buffer from market forces.
 
barnbwt said:
I can understand Kel-tec wants to protect its long-term prospects by keeping its firearms business small-scale. The machining they use to sell 500$ guns could just as easily be building +10000$ components for their real customers. What I don't get is why they don't just contract some other shop to do the gun-forging. With proper oversight, the same guns would get made, but Kel-tec wouldn't have to risk over-investing in that arm of their business. If the market falls out, they can always dump the contractor, who will then hook up with another corporation.

TCB
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You're presuming they have a backlog from their "real" customers. You're also presuming they're running at plant capacity. Something tells me if you dropped by Kel-Tec at 06:00 on a Sunday, all their injection molding machines and machining centers wouldn't be whizzing away.

You're also not taking into consideration using outside shops for parts that might be bottle-necked by capacity -- especially since many are looking for work.
 
wv109323 said:
As Stated a corporation is very hesitant to borrow capital money and invest into a business for a temporary peak in demand. It would take at least a two year demand spike( probably more like five years) for them to even consider investing capital money.
Even if they decided today to expand it would probably take close to a year to get specialized machinery for the expanded manufacturing. Then you would need to hire and train extra employees. New untrained employees means a drop in quality. You would need to take from the existing work force to promote people into management for the new employees. Where can you get trained people to build your specialized product except from within. Right now there is a tremendous shortage of skilled vocational employees.(welders, machinist,mechanics....etc.)
If they needed any super rare raw materials they may not be available.
I was involved with a company that could not expand due to the availability or lack thereof of roller bearings. Our company and Catapillar were the only users of some of the bearings. We got X number per month and that was it. Our company had an airplane on standby to fly the bearings from Timken to our factory as soon as they were manufactured.
It is a very complex problem and not a simple decision.
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Making the parts in-house is certainly not the only way to get them. There is also a tremendous surplus of shop time going unused in capable job-shops due to the dismal economy. There is no reason why Kel-Tec couldn't move molds, other tools, files, prints to competent job shops if capacity were truly the issue. I've been on teams that domestically out-sourced parts for far, far more difficult systems than any gun produced by Kel-Tec.

Depending on the area there is also a surplus of skilled labor. It also doesn't take 20 years of experience to load material and push the go button or tend the injection molding machine once it has been set-up. Further to suggest that "New untrained employees means a drop in quality" might be true in your world but it's not in the rest of the world.
 
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EddieNFL said:
This is often true of companies that mass produce and many see a significant drop in quality. I've waited for as long as nine months to get what I wanted.

Order a Randall Knife and let us know the wait.



And some dealers wouldn't sell to you unless you already owned one.
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"Mass production" does not equate to a drop in product quality. That's very, very antiquated thinking.
 
I saw a Kel Tec RFB at a small gun store in Bossier City. It wasn't on the rack with the rest of the guns, though. It was leaned up against the wall behind the counter. I have not yet found a PMR 30.
 
I claim economic bubble. There was a ton of their stuff at The Nation's Gun Show last time I was there in the spring. But this time, I haven't even found a dozen peices. They're like Trader Joe's if it were a gun company.
 
the lack of available products from kel-tec really irks me. They've had PLENTY of time to ramp up the pmr-30 availability, yet they remain @ 500$ and above on gunbroker. The new shotgun ? LOL, forget about it!! even some of their carbines are still unavailable. I was somewhat lucky to find my sub2k; not rare, but not abundant either.

I DO hope that their new facility makes the PMR-30 and others ubiquitous and affordable. I am a Kel-Tec fan and I hope this scarcity is not intentional.
 
I sold my .45 Hi Point this past winter. The guy who bought it had a PMR-30. Nice looking little gun. If there hadn't been so much snow on the ground he would have let me pop off a few rounds.
Last gun show I went to (in April) I saw both the RFB and the KSG. Didn't handle the RFB as I have no interest on it, but the KSG felt very flimsy. And it was selling for about $2k.

If I really wanted a bull pup shotgun, I'll buy a left handed Rem 870 and one of the aftermarket kits and save myself a pile of cash.

I for one am glad Kel-Tec is slow to bring their guns to market. By the time they hit the shelves at reasonable prices, I've already lost interest.
 
"Ruger a little more time"

Are you talking about the same Ruger that stopped taking orders at one point because they were so far behind?

:banghead:
 
Responsible businesses don't just leave customers wanting their product indefinitely....
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For the most part, businesses have two 2 responsibilities.

1) Be ethical
2) Not lose money

This issue doesnt fall into the 'responsibility' catagory.



It also doesn't take 20 years of experience to load material and push the go button or tend the injection molding machine once it has been set-up.
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Nor is as simple as you state. Manufacturing engineers are the ones that derive a process. Those machines have to be monitored due to consumable items beig used in the mfg process; such as router bits for example. Skilled trained eyes need to be for QC.


They arent making McDoubles and there isnt an Easy Button for them to push.



The general idea is to let the "early adopters" run your products into the ground and show you where the deficiencies are.
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IMO, unless that is disclosed to the customer, its a terrible practice and really not very ethical.

I realized that once in production some issues latent issues will arise, but by now, the PF9 and PF11 should be more reliable and the need to be fluffed and buffed should just about be non-existant.
 
Some cool designs for sure, but it's not like any of their guns would sell in great volumes like Smith, Glock, Springfield, Colt,Ruger etc guns.
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Actually, they're outselling both Springfield and Colt. KT is the 3rd largest handgun maker in the USA.
 
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