Lock Trouble
- Thread starter JoeShmoe
- Start date
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Actually they're is no risk. The lock is not a safety in the conventional way of thinking. It's sole purpose is to secure the gun when it's being stored. So long as you use an alternative (external trigger lock, padlock secured box, lockbox, safe, etc) you don't need an additional internal lock. Leaving it laying around and loaded is another matter.
Actually they're is no risk. The lock is not a safety in the conventional way of thinking. It's sole purpose is to secure the gun when it's being stored. So long as you use an alternative (external trigger lock, padlock secured box, lockbox, safe, etc) you don't need an additional internal lock. Leaving it laying around and loaded is another matter.
Actually I was referring to the risk of having to defend the removal of the lock if you ever have to appear before a jury. Mine always goes in the safe when it's not in my pocket.
If you were involved in some sort of incident where the revolver was inspected and the missing lock was discovered, that point would come up as a question.
Why did you do it?
You (or a lawyer representing you) would point out that you only removed the lock after you returned the gun to its manufacturer, and they failed to correct the problem (this thread could be presented as evidence, and the paperwork from S&W in addition). Consequently as a last resort you removed the lock and used an alternative method to secure it in safe storage. If the incident didn't include any storage issues, proving negligence on your part would be a streach.
If you want additional insurance, send it back to Smith & Wesson, and tell them it still doesn't work - and you want it fixed! As it stands now, because it still doesn't work (unless you remove the lock) most any liability has shifted to them from you, as it is.
It would be far less expensive for them to exchange the gun you have for a new one, then to risk the consequences of being a party in a lawsuit if the one you have failed, given its past history.
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I dont understand how the disabling of the lock would be relevant to the issues of whether a law abiding ccw committed homicide , or aggravated assault, or is liable for a wrongful death or battery. And even if it was relevant, doesn't the op have a reasonable explanation for disabling it?
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It depends on circumstances we cannot predict, and the attitudes of a jury, along with statutes and courts in states where we have no input. This means one can't be completely sure. A lot depends on the judicial environment and public perceptions in the area where the incident happened. What should be the outcome doesn't always come about. Disabling the lock shouldn't have any meaning, but no one can say for sure that it won't.
Yes he does, in fact much more then would usually be the case. I would say he is on safe and sound ground. But if he returns the gun - and especially if he gets a replacement, he'll be on even safer and sounder ground. Right now S&W may have a more serious problem then he does.
No, I think that relevancy is an evidentiary question to be adjudicated by a judge under the rules of evidence. A lawyer should file a motion in limine to exclude the lock issue from ever reaching the jury in a lawful self-defense case. But blah blah, right?
Anyway, I wouldn't want a revolver that locks up on its own!
Anyway, I wouldn't want a revolver that locks up on its own!
No, I think that relevancy is an evidentiary question to be adjudicated by a judge under the rules of evidence. A lawyer should file a motion in limine to exclude the lock issue from ever reaching the jury in a lawful self-defense case. But blah blah, right?
Anyway, I wouldn't want a revolver that locks up on its own!
Me either, but that's what I've got. I love the gun without the lock. It's very concealable, lightweight, it's a 357, and I shoot it well. I even like the factory grips.
orionengnr
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2005
- Messages
- 5,708
Send it back to S&W (with a copy of this thread).
Ask them to exchange it for a no-Lock 340.
Everyone's happy.
PS- I had a 360 and two 340s back ~6 years ago (along with several other ILS revolvers). One day an acquaintance had his 340 auto-Lock while dry firing. Mine started getting sold off shortly thereafter, and I haven't owned a j-frame since.
I knew S&W was offering 642s without The Lock, but I was not aware they were offering the 340 likewise--might have to add that to the shopping list.
JimK and old Fuff--Good info, as always. Thank you.
Ask them to exchange it for a no-Lock 340.
Everyone's happy.
PS- I had a 360 and two 340s back ~6 years ago (along with several other ILS revolvers). One day an acquaintance had his 340 auto-Lock while dry firing. Mine started getting sold off shortly thereafter, and I haven't owned a j-frame since.
I knew S&W was offering 642s without The Lock, but I was not aware they were offering the 340 likewise--might have to add that to the shopping list.
JimK and old Fuff--Good info, as always. Thank you.
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Guillermo
member
Joe
Sell it and buy a gun that you can trust.
MIM, CNC guns are bad enough. MIM, CNC guns with an IL are potentially worse than being unarmed.
But whatever you do, don't buy an old revolver with forged parts.
(wink wink)
Sell it and buy a gun that you can trust.
MIM, CNC guns are bad enough. MIM, CNC guns with an IL are potentially worse than being unarmed.
But whatever you do, don't buy an old revolver with forged parts.
(wink wink)
Hawk
Member
So, I come back after what I believe is a long spell to see the lock issue is alive and well. I am, however, pleased to note that the issue seems to have boiled down to one of practicality rather than politics -- the pejorative "hillary hole" seems not to have occurred or, more likely, I simply missed it.
A few anecdotal remarks:
1. Insofar as "investment" goes, the advice regarding "pinned and recessed" is sound. Though I may have participated on the other side of the debate (mostly due to simply being a contrary sort) I took the buying advice offered and I'm being pleasantly surprised by how the things are holding up at auction. Most are closing tomorrow, some a week from now. I'll not shank the rules by pimping the auctions - in fact, they've already nicely gone past the "bargain" stage - good advice from Old Fuff indeed. I owe him some beers.
2. My edc remains an STI VIP so this whole "lock" thing doesn't impact me at all.
3. The revolvers I held back from auction include several with the lock and one that might be desirable except for some gomer having molested the strain screw - it being a older square butt replacement is something of an issue.
4. Apart from all that it appears that the problem is associated with those frames comprised of compressed angel tears. It certainly hasn't impacted my performance center, rather weighty, examples.
5. So it's easy for me to suggest that one simply "get over it" - life is a compromise and, not to point out the obvious, but it's simply impossible to buy an older mystery metal frame - they all came out after the lock and if weight and capacity means something to you, you'll have to take a big cup of "get over it".
6. I don't know about you revolver folks but I've been taught that if your carry gun hasn't messed up you've simply neglected to shoot it enough - granted that an STI VIP doesn't need much to clear a malf (should it ever happen).
At the end of the day it's good to know that things haven't changed - except perhaps for the better in re: adolescent name calling. This last seems to have disappeared and I offer kudos.
A few anecdotal remarks:
1. Insofar as "investment" goes, the advice regarding "pinned and recessed" is sound. Though I may have participated on the other side of the debate (mostly due to simply being a contrary sort) I took the buying advice offered and I'm being pleasantly surprised by how the things are holding up at auction. Most are closing tomorrow, some a week from now. I'll not shank the rules by pimping the auctions - in fact, they've already nicely gone past the "bargain" stage - good advice from Old Fuff indeed. I owe him some beers.
2. My edc remains an STI VIP so this whole "lock" thing doesn't impact me at all.
3. The revolvers I held back from auction include several with the lock and one that might be desirable except for some gomer having molested the strain screw - it being a older square butt replacement is something of an issue.
4. Apart from all that it appears that the problem is associated with those frames comprised of compressed angel tears. It certainly hasn't impacted my performance center, rather weighty, examples.
5. So it's easy for me to suggest that one simply "get over it" - life is a compromise and, not to point out the obvious, but it's simply impossible to buy an older mystery metal frame - they all came out after the lock and if weight and capacity means something to you, you'll have to take a big cup of "get over it".
6. I don't know about you revolver folks but I've been taught that if your carry gun hasn't messed up you've simply neglected to shoot it enough - granted that an STI VIP doesn't need much to clear a malf (should it ever happen).
At the end of the day it's good to know that things haven't changed - except perhaps for the better in re: adolescent name calling. This last seems to have disappeared and I offer kudos.
Well it is good to see that you are are still around and have not left us, even though it seem apparent that you have degenerated and gone to pistols.
Concerning the mainspring strain screw issue, a lot depends on frame size (K/L or N) and when the gun was made. In earlier times S&W made there own screws to in-house thread specifications. Hopefully that isn't what you need.
I'm afraid that you can't sell one of those modern, mystery metal lightweight guns to someone who still occasionally carries a .38 top-break S&W Safety Hammerless revolver (no lock of course). The poor Old Fuff is lost in a world where they don't make them like they used to. :banghead:
Concerning the mainspring strain screw issue, a lot depends on frame size (K/L or N) and when the gun was made. In earlier times S&W made there own screws to in-house thread specifications. Hopefully that isn't what you need.
I'm afraid that you can't sell one of those modern, mystery metal lightweight guns to someone who still occasionally carries a .38 top-break S&W Safety Hammerless revolver (no lock of course). The poor Old Fuff is lost in a world where they don't make them like they used to. :banghead:
Guillermo
member
1- we all owe him (but don't tell him...his head is already bigger than a beluga whale's)
2- smart
3-
4- glad you are lucky
5- reliability, to me, is MUCH more important than ANY other aspect of a defensive firearm
6- many of my guns have never messed up, auto or revolver
I have thousands of rounds through many of them. Not saying it won't happen. They are mechanical devices. But why add to it with the idiotically designed lock? (on the same axis, opposite, of the recoil of the gun)
2- smart
3-
4- glad you are lucky
5- reliability, to me, is MUCH more important than ANY other aspect of a defensive firearm
6- many of my guns have never messed up, auto or revolver
I have thousands of rounds through many of them. Not saying it won't happen. They are mechanical devices. But why add to it with the idiotically designed lock? (on the same axis, opposite, of the recoil of the gun)
Hawk
Member
Old Fuff said:
Actually not so much degenerated to pistols but a simple medical issue that makes it harder to enjoy a hobby. Though I've admittedly had a soft spot for the STI. Fortunately, it's not a sell-off to cover medical expenses but rather a "it was a fun ride" sell-off which will no doubt finance another hobby.
I do miss this place and it's great to see the old hands are still around to guide those of us with less experience.
@Guillermo: The purchase of a lock-free revolver will in some cases involve the purchase of a used revolver and without you or Old Fuff at one's elbow during the transaction there's every possibility reliability will be spotty. In my inexperienced case it ranged from unscrewed ejector rods to a bad lot of soft brass ammo seizing up an Anaconda to a model 28 that Lord only knows what happened to it to multiple cases of kitchen table trigger jobs.
This latter resulted, two separate times, in producing the revolver version of "ammo sensitivity" - if you weren't feeding it nice soft primers you got a "click". "Ammo sensitivity" in a revolver equates to "unreliable" to me but it's possible that there's disagreement on that assessment.
"Buy a lock-free Smith for reliability" is excellent advice but it remains incumbent on the purchaser to give it a thorough shakedown - perhaps even to include S&B ammo. The STI, which I no longer shoot as much as I should, hasn't spit up yet but it won't be a surprise when it does.
This is a great point, and in my mind makes the semi-auto vs. revolver reliability argument, a little bit more muddy.
Guillermo
member
autos are VERY reliable these days. Their flat sides are good for concealment. Capacity and reloading are advantages.
They do require a LOT more training for when they don't work.
As to buying a used revolver, the "sticky" at the top of the page is outstanding. It will help you pick up 95% of the problems you are likely to come across.
Setting ammunition issues aside (because bad ammo can and will mess up the best of guns, and it doesn't matter if they are pistols or revolvers); I cannot remember my last serious revolver malfunction or broken part. I will exclude from that those guns that I knew were problem children, but I bought them anyway at a substantial discount and then fixed them.
Smith & Wesson revolvers that I'm interested in at least don't turn out to be lemons. Consider my simple rules for pre-purchase preparation and inspection.
1. Buy from reliable sellers, and keep in mind that many sellers are honest but have no idea how to spot and diagnose issues in a used gun. The more used it is the more this is true.
2. When examining a used S&W revolver (which will be the subject of today's lesson), first eyeball the screws, especially the sideplate screws. If the slots are battered and burred someone has likely been inside who shouldn't. This should set off an alarm bell!
3. Does it have an exceptionally light double-action trigger pull? Much as we might like, S&W doesn't make them that way. Smooth is O.K. - especially in revolvers made before 1946 or '47. "Light" means someone has tampered or exchanged the spring(s), and while the gun may still be all right the circumstances strongly suggest you should pass.
4. When you cock the hammer does it feel kind of soft and funny?, or when you release it does it fall and make a "ting" sound? This indicates that either the mainspring strain screw isn't screwed all of the way in, or that it is but has been shortened. This isn't absolutely critical, but it is an indicator of somebody's basement action tune-up. This is always a good reason to either pass or seek a substantial price cut.
5. Slowly cock the hammer and release the trigger on all chambers, and be sure the cylinder "carries up" (revolves all of the way from one chamber to the next and the cylinder stop locks it in place). Then do the same while pulling the trigger through a double-action cycle. At the same time feel for any hitches or hesitation as the internal lockwork parts move. There should be none.
6. After making absolutely sure the chambers are unloaded, point the revolver toward yourself so that you can see the front of the yoke (the hinge part the cylinder swings out on) and use a thumb and forefinger to try and wiggle the cylinder away from the frame. If there is any it will be seen when the yoke can be moved away from the frame. This indicates a bent yoke barrel (the tube on the yoke the cylinder spins on) and suggests abuse. It can be fixed, but again light bulbs should be flashing in your mind.
7. With the cylinder swung out, slowly turn it while you push the extractor in and out. If at any point it binds it may be bent.
8. Check for cylinder "end shake" by trying to pull and push the cylinder back and forth when it is latched. This movement should be very slight, and again can be fixed. But if it is more then slight be careful.
9. Look at the end of the firing pin to be sure it's rounded, and when you lower the hammer while holding the trigger back it should stick out into the breech face. Check this out on some obviously good revolvers so you'll know what to look for and expect later.
10 Be sure the cylinder bolt thumb piece moves back and forth when the cylinder is latched. If it binds even a little bit the extractor, center rod, or extractor rod may be bent.
11. A copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book, The Smith & Wesson Revolver - A Shop Manual is well worth buying, especially if you are looking to buy earlier pre-MIM revolvers. Unfortunately it doesn't cover the later products, and I don't know of anything that does. Reading the manual will teach you how these critters work, and offer even more hints on trouble-shooting. Knowledge is power and can save you a lot of money.
12. Last but not least, when expecting to buy face-to-face, carry cash. Real money on the deck does wonders when trying to move a deal in your direction, and if the seller bulks at letting you perform the above inspections, hand him back his gun. Sooner or later another one will come along.
Smith & Wesson revolvers that I'm interested in at least don't turn out to be lemons. Consider my simple rules for pre-purchase preparation and inspection.
1. Buy from reliable sellers, and keep in mind that many sellers are honest but have no idea how to spot and diagnose issues in a used gun. The more used it is the more this is true.
2. When examining a used S&W revolver (which will be the subject of today's lesson), first eyeball the screws, especially the sideplate screws. If the slots are battered and burred someone has likely been inside who shouldn't. This should set off an alarm bell!
3. Does it have an exceptionally light double-action trigger pull? Much as we might like, S&W doesn't make them that way. Smooth is O.K. - especially in revolvers made before 1946 or '47. "Light" means someone has tampered or exchanged the spring(s), and while the gun may still be all right the circumstances strongly suggest you should pass.
4. When you cock the hammer does it feel kind of soft and funny?, or when you release it does it fall and make a "ting" sound? This indicates that either the mainspring strain screw isn't screwed all of the way in, or that it is but has been shortened. This isn't absolutely critical, but it is an indicator of somebody's basement action tune-up. This is always a good reason to either pass or seek a substantial price cut.
5. Slowly cock the hammer and release the trigger on all chambers, and be sure the cylinder "carries up" (revolves all of the way from one chamber to the next and the cylinder stop locks it in place). Then do the same while pulling the trigger through a double-action cycle. At the same time feel for any hitches or hesitation as the internal lockwork parts move. There should be none.
6. After making absolutely sure the chambers are unloaded, point the revolver toward yourself so that you can see the front of the yoke (the hinge part the cylinder swings out on) and use a thumb and forefinger to try and wiggle the cylinder away from the frame. If there is any it will be seen when the yoke can be moved away from the frame. This indicates a bent yoke barrel (the tube on the yoke the cylinder spins on) and suggests abuse. It can be fixed, but again light bulbs should be flashing in your mind.
7. With the cylinder swung out, slowly turn it while you push the extractor in and out. If at any point it binds it may be bent.
8. Check for cylinder "end shake" by trying to pull and push the cylinder back and forth when it is latched. This movement should be very slight, and again can be fixed. But if it is more then slight be careful.
9. Look at the end of the firing pin to be sure it's rounded, and when you lower the hammer while holding the trigger back it should stick out into the breech face. Check this out on some obviously good revolvers so you'll know what to look for and expect later.
10 Be sure the cylinder bolt thumb piece moves back and forth when the cylinder is latched. If it binds even a little bit the extractor, center rod, or extractor rod may be bent.
11. A copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book, The Smith & Wesson Revolver - A Shop Manual is well worth buying, especially if you are looking to buy earlier pre-MIM revolvers. Unfortunately it doesn't cover the later products, and I don't know of anything that does. Reading the manual will teach you how these critters work, and offer even more hints on trouble-shooting. Knowledge is power and can save you a lot of money.
12. Last but not least, when expecting to buy face-to-face, carry cash. Real money on the deck does wonders when trying to move a deal in your direction, and if the seller bulks at letting you perform the above inspections, hand him back his gun. Sooner or later another one will come along.
Guillermo
member
Yep
There is a Police Positive on Gun Broker at $200 (last time I checked).
Sat on my watch list until the final day (today) at the low price.
A closer look to see if I was REALLY interested revealed a horribly boogered screw.
An Automatic "PASS"
Guillermo
member
That doesn't take much!!!
You think you scrape things off your shoe smarter than me
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