Smith and Wesson M&P

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What???? Glock didn't invent polygonal rifling? Polymer? Trigger safeties? Striker fired mechanism? etc....etc.....

:D

Kind of like this rectangle with rounded corners I'm typing from... LOL
 
I absolutely love my M&P 45 compact

I did the DIY trigger job, and this is my favorite pistol


AND...... M&P has recently upgraded all of the line with a better trigger,
So no trigger job is neccessary for new ones (or so I am told)


If you want great accuracy, reliability, reasonable weight, great ergonomics, AND you want to put an American worker to work...........


Buy an M&P
 
I generally dislike it when anyone tries to get around someone else's patents.

You know that is kind of the whole point of giving people patents, right? In exchange for a monopoly of limited duration, they make their technology public knowledge. Patent law is expressly designed to ENCOURAGE people to work out alternate solutions (what you call "getting around someone else's patents"). It's not a loophole, it's a very intentional and centuries-old public policy that encourages innovation and gives customers greater choices.
 
You stated that you dont think they are reliable. I told you how reliable they are.
Have you ever shot one?
 
I dislike the loose fit of the slide to frame to barrel. I dislike the trigger feel. I dislike the general appearance.

I generally dislike it when anyone tries to get around someone else's patents.
Loose tolerances were on purpose, and they improve reliability with crappy amunition such as tula that sometimes has light loads.
Trigger is your opinion. Looks are your opinion.
It's called "innovation," not trying to "get around someone else's patents."
 
Loose tolerances were on purpose, and they improve reliability with crappy amunition such as tula that sometimes has light loads.

Did you read and understand what I wrote about clearances and reliability? Tightly fitted guns, such as S&W Performance Center automatics do not have reliability issues. Have you ever seen one? They are fitted so tight you almost need a magnifying glass to see where the frame ends and the slide begins.
 
Did you read and understand what I wrote about clearances and reliability? Tightly fitted guns, such as S&W Performance Center automatics do not have reliability issues. Have you ever seen one? They are fitted so tight you almost need a magnifying glass to see where the frame ends and the slide begins.
And loosley fitted guns such as the M&P line of pistols don't have any problems either. I never said that the performance center autos had any issues. Don't put words into my mouth.

I've said all I'm going to say at this point.
 
I sold a G23 & G27 to fund the M&P 9mm FS & 45c. I also have the XDm 45 out of the three the M&P is my favorite hands down.
Btw 45c is my main carry pistol.
 
And loosley fitted guns such as the M&P line of pistols don't have any problems either. I never said that the performance center autos had any issues. Don't put words into my mouth.

I was not puting words in your mouth. I was refuting your claim, using PC guns as an example. Hell, you can use Glocks as an example also. They are way tighter than M&Ps.
 
Thank you gentlemen.

I appreciate the input very much. I currently have an XD9 and like it very much. I got interested in the M&P because I was looking for a .45 auto with that ever so fleeting Made in USA stamp. I actually have considered a 1911 Platform as well, but don't feel that I can obtain a reliable 1911 for anywhere near the cost of the M&P.... I may regret asking but does anyone want to weigh in on the less costly 1911s out there such as RIA, etc.....? BTW reliability is my main concern, It HAS to feed hollow points.
 
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The problem I have with the trigger safety system on the M&P is that it is totally unecessary to "get around the patent"...several other manufacturers make the lever-style safety, which I feel is actually safer, more comfortable to shoot, and is less stressful on the trigger. In fact, I don't see any manufacturers making a hinged-style trigger for Glock, XD, etc...but I do see people making lever-style trigger for M&P.

Glock might not have invented all of its stuff, but I'm pretty sure it was the first to put those features together and that Glock made great strides in cheap manufacturing. S&W benefited from those innovations. One can say "they just copied Glock", someone else can say "they stood on Glock's shoulders." I'm not saying either is right, but I do know that while Glock was THE a while back, they are A now. Glock actually has competition from similar options made by other manufacturers.
 
918v,

You sir must not understand who the guns were designed for.

reliability is not typically an issue for most target shooters. The issues for target shooters are typically ammo or magazine related, not gun related.

The reason the combat handguns like the Glocks, M&P's, H&K's are made with such loose tolerances, are for COMBAT reliability... you know, when sand and crap gets in the gun.

I shoot USPSA Nationals in Las Vegas... every guy with a tightly fitted 1911, 2011 STI or SVI, CZ, Sphinx... had to make sure their guns are covered by a plastic bag so that sand does not get in as the wind blows. These are all tightly fitted guns designed for competition, much like any Performance Center.. etc.

Guys with stock glocks, M&p's did not have to worry because the tolerances are loose enough that a few grains of sand will not jam up the gun.

Secondly, the glock barrels... primarily designed to improve accuracy (not reliability), and to allow the competitor to shoot lead ammo. (you cannot shoot lead through a polygonal rifled barrel). Leads to a KB.

Look at HK... very expensive guns, yet... known for reliability, in part which comes from a fair amount of play in all moving parts.
 
I have been considering improving my Home Defense gun from a 40 cal to something that might have more knockdown power. Some say the .45 has that. I have an M&P 40 so an M&P 45 seems like a natural. I like the M&P triggers after they get broken in. But the relatively light M&P 45 has quite a bit more recoil than the standard 1911. It may be easier to carry around all day if that is what you do. It is not what I do. The Glock 30, which I also considered, leads with a recoil of 10.2 ft lb energy (according to Genitron). Then the M&P comes in at 8.1 ft-lbs. Then all the heavier 1911 designs - SW1911, Auto-Ordnance, Colt Special Commander, Remington R1 Enhanced and Springfield A1 Loaded - sit at a comfortable 6.5 or 6.6 ft-lbs. It is no wonder they are so popular. The heavier guns are easier to shoot accurately. For an HD gun, that is more important than being a light carry.
 
The reason the combat handguns like the Glocks, M&P's, H&K's are made with such loose tolerances, are for COMBAT reliability... you know, when sand and crap gets in the gun.

I do understand why combat guns are fitted more loosely. I'm not an idiot. It's just that M&P's are the loosest of the loose. Do you understand that? There is no reason to build them any looser than a Glock, which is said to be the pinnacle of mud and sand reliability. It really detracts from the only positive thing the gun has- ergonomics.
 
Loose or not, it still works... works quite well. Same with my BHP's.

In any case, shooting at 25 yards or so, the m&p is far more accurate than 90% of the glocks out there, even with the stock barrels.

Glock is not the end all be all.... if you want to talk reliability... look and compare to Hk P30 and HK 45.

todd green, iirc, 100k rounds through hk p30, cleaning it every 20k rounds or so. and was a tad loose.

It happens. At the same time, it could of been a bad example.
 
It's just that M&P's are the loosest of the loose. Do you understand that?

You've made that general statement several times but you haven't provided any data to support it.


At least someone else provided data on their S&W M&P.


I'd like to see some data supporting that the M&P is the "loosest of the loose" as you say.

With out it, I dont think any one can 'understand' why you would make such a claim.
 
OK fine. I measured my G17L and it has .005" clearance in the frame rails, both up/down and side to side. I admit this is the tightest Glock I have ever seen and my other ones are looser than that, but nowhere near the level of looseness of a M&P.
 
So the tightest Glock has 0.005" clearance, while one random M&P has 0.007-0.011". Doesn't sound like "nowhere near" to me.

And that's frame to slide clearance that has no impact on accuracy.
 
I don't own one, but a range buddy does (in 9mm, though), and I've rented a few of 'em. It points very naturally for me, almost as well as my 1911. It let's me get that really high grip I like to get. A lot of people complain about the trigger, but I'm not sure why, I really liked it, and prefer it to a Glock trigger.

Actually, for some odd reason the compact feels a little better in my hand, I have no idea why, though.
 
So the tightest Glock has 0.005" clearance, while one random M&P has 0.007-0.011". Doesn't sound like "nowhere near" to me.

And that's frame to slide clearance that has no impact on accuracy.

That's not the point. The gun feels like garbage. A 50-100% increase in clearances is significant. The M&Ps I played with have alot more than that.
 
918V, Since you have posted about ten times that you think the tolerances of the M&P are too loose I think we all get that you feel that way by now. Repeating it over and over again isn't going to convert everyone. In fact, since I would wager most of us have no problems with accuracy or other problems with the M&P no one else seems to think it is that big of a deal even if it is true. I own two M&Ps and I certainly don't care, They are the best shooting pistols I've ever had.
 
It's been a while since I picked up or shot an M&P, but I don't remember them rattling like 50 year old abused 1911s... Don't really remember them feeling loose at all, not any more than any other handgun. Last one I had my hands on shot like any other poly pistol, decent... But not really impressive. I'd take it over a Glock though.
 
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