Most advanced handgun and bio-engineering

Certaindeaf · Nov 9, 2012

I was referring to a search leading one to Gaston.

Guillermo · Nov 9, 2012

sounds like a translation issue

Skribs · Nov 9, 2012

Ah, this appears to be what Glock is saying about other pistols, not his. That other pistols are difficult to use because of excessive controls.

I had thought this was all trying to describe one pistol.

winfried · Nov 10, 2012

beatledog7 said:
Does the location from which someone posts, or lists as his location in his profile, indicate what that person's native language is? Over my career, assuming I changed my profile to indicate my physical location, I might have posted to THR from a dozen different countries in which English is not the official or most commonly spoken/written language, but my native language is English.

I do own a Glock, but the one I have has little in common with the description in the OP. Thanks, though, Winfried, for the morning's entertainment. Most original Glock-bashing post I've seen on THR.

I do not see it as glock bashing, I have posted unaltered extracts from 1988 US Patent 4.825.744
I have on record 90 total failures of Glock pistols. Some of them resulted in injuries to hands.

I have blown up a high power, other than grips coming off and all magazine parts blown out the bottom nothing else happened.

For the record, a barrel having a yield strength of only60kg/mm^2 and a chamber wall of 3mm would need about 10500 bar (about three times max pressure of a rifle cartridge) to split the chamber, but such pressure is neigh impossible with a small capacity 9mm shell.
That is why all split chambers are not just the result of overloads, but of the hardening process which Glock claims to have pioneered. Nitrite hardening known under various names was developed to prevent burning valves of high-performance engines. The process makes steel hard and the hardness depends on the exact method, but unlike the hardening and tempering process of carbon steel it is not possible to have full control over the desired hardness.
From an engineering point, Glocks have many faults, but few people are engineers.

Regards

WAH

Sam1911 · Nov 10, 2012

Ninety? Wow, that's a lot. Well, on the other hand, Glock (well, all Austrian handgun manufacturers together, so take out a few hundred Steyrs from these numbers) exported over 400,000 handguns to the US in 2010, and over 500,000 in 2011, and has been sending us some large number like that each year for about the last 20 years. (The wiki, however ONLY suggests production numbers totaling 2,500,000 -- whichever.)

Now I have to assume there are more than 90 of those millions that have failed due to some defect in the gun itself (rather than due to operator or ammunition errors which would have damaged any other gun equally or worse).

Still... 90 vs. some number of MILLIONS?

So, in other words, if you bought yourself 28 THOUSAND Glocks, you could reasonably expect ONE of them would fail due to a manufacturing defect? You could shoot a new Glock every day of an average person's lifespan before you found the bad one.

From a statistical standpoint, Glocks seem to be doing ok. But few people are statisticians.

beatledog7 · Nov 10, 2012

Here is what I referred to as bashing.

winfried said:
The originator of that paper seems to believe that he created the FIRST MODERN HANDGUN. It was non other than Mr. Gaston Glock in a 1988 patent application.
No wonder they [sic] blow up, no wonder they can't [sic] get the hardening right. No wonder they need retrofits extensively and it must be the only pistol in the world for which a term of a particular malfunction was coined.
I am glad I do not own a Glock. I hope you enjoy your glock.

The PDF attachment is the same text with my snotty comments added in italics and high-lighted.

That is snotty, mean spirited Glock bashing. You even admit to being snotty.

The other part, the quotes from the patent, was what I meant by an original approach.

And then you toss in this:

I have on record 90 total failures of Glock pistols. Some of them resulted in injuries to hands.

Really? How many Glocks have been sold? Statistics are had to come by, but some estimates say a million in the US alone. (Sam's post has better numbers--it hit while I was composing this one.) And you can document 90 failures?

To make a comparison, the Honda Accord has frequently made the most-often-stolen cars list, leading some folks to think there was sort of security flaw in the vehicle. Truth is simpler--thieves are opportunists, and Accords are so numerous that when a thief finds an easy mark, it is naturally going to be an Accord fairly often.

It's the same with Glock pistols. There are a lot of them, so when a pistol fails, it has a better than average chance of being a Glock even if every make fails at the same rate. It's impossible to make failure statistics meaningful without taking that into account.

So your post seems to have been made with just one purpose, really. A clever approach at first, but in the end it was simple Glock bashing. No way around it.

I don't personally care. I own a Glock that has had about 1,000 rounds through it and has had one FTE (with lead handloads in an aftermarket barrel) and has never blown up. I like it and I trust it. My feelings are not hurt. I just think you should be up front with us. When you get called out as a Glock basher, don't try to hide; admit it.

lawboy · Nov 10, 2012

The original post seems like a witch hunt for a problem to me. The manual of arms for any modern pistol is fairly simple and easily accomplished safely. Accidents are very rarely known to be the fault of the pistol design. If you can drive a car and stop it suddenly to avoid an accident without running off the road or stalling the engine of a manual transmission then you can operate a pistol.

People operate jet fighter aircraft at high speed while locked in deadly combat while stressing their bodies to the limit and they manage. Operating silly handgun is supposed to be some kind of huge challenge?

I mean, really? Come one!

Practice what you need to practice and get on with it.

Odd Job · Nov 10, 2012

The pistol that first came to mind when I read bio-engineering was the Vektor CP-1

That's what I thought also. It is the most comfortable gun to hold and point (well, out of all the ones I have tried). Pity the trigger is so crap though, when you actually fire it.
Having said that, I carried one IWB for more than 5 years in Johannesburg. It was very nice to carry, very comfortable indeed...

Owen · Nov 12, 2012

I would say that verbage is pretty typical for patents. And Gaston would not have written the patent, a lawyer would have. One of the things patents do is shotgun a large number of innovation claims, to give the originator something to work with in court.

LiveLife · Nov 12, 2012

winfried said:
I do not see it as glock bashing, I have posted unaltered extracts from 1988 US Patent 4.825.744

OMG, with all due respect!

This is the actual abstract of US Patent 4,825,744 issued on 5/2/1989 and filed on 8/2/1988 (SN: 227,514) - http://www.google.com/patents?id=PV88AAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&zoom=4&output=text

If you actually read the patent abstract, what OP posted is what Gaston Glock described in "BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION" that were problems with "AUTOMATIC PISTOL" that his new invention would address

Gaston Glock said:
OBJECTS OF THE INVENTION

It is therefore an object of the present invention to provide an improved pistol.

Another object is the provision of such an improved pistol which overcomes the above-given disadvantages (what winfried posted in OP)

Yet another object is to provide an easy-to-use but very safe automatic pistol which can be produced at low cost.

The blue highlights represent the new inventions that address the problems OP posted (my comments in parenthesis/bold blue letters) and refer to corresponding diagrams:

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

A pistol according to the invention has a frame, a barrel slidable on the frame and having a cartridgereceiving rear end, and a breach block slidable on the frame and engageable over the rear end of the barrel to form a cartridge chamber. A standard slide carries the barrel and breech block. A firing element and a firing pin operatively linked thereto are movable on the breech block toward and away from the barrel between a rear position in which the firing pin is out of the cartridge chamber and a front position with the firing pin projecting forward into the cartridge chamber for firing a cartridge in the chamber when the firing element moves from the rear to the front position. A relatively strong firing spring braced against the firing element urges same into the front position and a relatively weak spring braced against the firing element urges same into the rear position. A trigger movable on the frame between an actuated and an unactuated position and an abutment engageable with the firing element and displaceable backward on the frame are linked together so as to displace the firing element back into the rear position on displacement of the trigger from the unactuated to the actuated position and to displace the abutment out of operative engagement with the firing element on displacement of the trigger into the actuated position for displacement of the firing element by the springs into the front position. (Trigger is attached to the bar that pushes up on the striker block to release the striker - so unless the trigger is pulled back, even if the striker moves forward, the striker block would prevent the tip of the striker from coming forward of the breach wall to hit the primer cup)

According to another feature of this invention, the abutment is engageable with the firing element in an intermediate position thereof in the unactuated position of the trigger and the linkage displaces the firing element backward from the intermediate position into the rear position by means of the abutment on displacement of the trigger from the unactuated to the actuated position.

Thus, the starting position of the abutment for the firing bolt or hammer is at an intermediate location in the travel path of same. In this manner, the firing mechanism can be such that the trigger force is substantially less than with the known pistols. Preferably, the starting position of the firing pin is in a noncritical region of its travel path or that of the hammer, in which region the force of the partially loaded firing-pin spring or hammer spring is insufficient to fire a shot. (When a round is chambered or slide cycled on empty chamber, striker is pulled back about 1/3 way. This "pre-loading" of striker lightens the 2/3 DA pull of striker. If the striker somehow was released from this 1/3 pre-loaded position, the force is not sufficient to indent the primer cup to ignite it)

According to this invention, the spring means includes a relatively strong firing spring braced against 5 the firing element and urging same into the front position and a relatively weak spring braced against the firing element and urging same into the back position. The trigger or cocking force is the difference between these spring forces and can be set at a hair trigger or a 10 relatively stiff novice level. In other words, the pistol is always uncocked or at least partially uncocked. The cocking for each shot is effected by the trigger and is assisted by a spring, so that the condition of the pistol is the same before the first shot as it is before the subsequent shots (Figure 15).

According to another feature of this invention, the firing means includes a guide holding the abutment in operative engagement with the firing element on displacement of the trigger from the unactuated to the 20 actuated position. In addition, when the element is in the intermediate position the abutment prevents any displacement of the firing element relative to the abutment. Accidental discharge of the pistol therefore is impossible.

In accordance with another feature of the invention the abutment is displaceable laterally relative to the firing element between a position in the path of same and engageable therewith and a position out of the path and unengageable therewith, the link means displacing 30 the abutment into the out-of-path position on displacement of the trigger into the actuated position. This movement of the abutment which frees the firing element—firing pin or hammer—in a direction perpendicular to one in which this element moves to fire the 35 cartridge means that if the pistol is jarred, as for example by being dropped, it is virtually impossible for the necessary forces to be exerted on the mechanism to fire the pistol (So even with chambered pistol that may be dropped, spring tensions on the trigger/striker pin block will prevent the striker tip from moving past the breach wall to indent the primer cup).

The abutment can, according to this invention, be 40 rotatable between the in-path and the out-of-path positions. More particularly when the firing element is a longitudinally displaceable bolt and the abutment has a sleeve carried thereon, the firing means includes a torsion spring urging the abutment into the in-path posi- 45 tion. The abutment is an arm projecting from the sleeve and the breech block is formed with a guide holding the abutment in operative engagement with the firing element on displacement of the trigger from the unactuated to the actuated position. In addition, in such an 50 arrangement, the link means includes a trigger slide displaceable parallel to and transversely of the path of travel of the firing pin and having a spring urging it into engagement with the abutment.

The abutment can be a lever having one pivoted end 55 and an opposite end engageable in the path of the firing element and deflectable thereby out of the path thereof to free the firing element for firing. More particularly, when the abutment is such a lever it can have one end engaging in the path of the firing element and another 60 end formed with a slot. The frame has a pivot pin traversing the slot and the firing mechanism comprises a spring urging the one end away from the pivot pin. Once again, the displacement direction for the link is transverse of the firing pin. Therefore, the pistol is very 65 jar-resistant.

In accordance with this invention, the firing element can also be a hammer pivotal on the frame, in which case the firing mechanism includes a firing pin carrying the firing pin tip and engageable with the hammer and the spring means and abutment are engageable with the hammer. The abutment can be a two-arm lever Mockingly engageable with the hammer and laterally deflectable out of engagement therewith. It can also be a longitudinally slidable trigger slide.

In a particularly simple construction according to this invention, the firing element is a firing bolt carrying the firing pin tip and a firing-pin nose and the abutment is directly engageable with the nose. Furthermore, the link means includes a trigger slide and an inclined surface on the frame engageable with the trigger slide in the actuated position of the trigger. This link means includes a spring urging the slide into engagement with the inclined surface.

To eliminate the problem of firing-pin tip breakage which plagues automatic pistols, the firing pin tip is lance-shaped and the breech block is formed with an elongated throughgoing slot through which the lanceshaped pin tip engages. More particularly, the firing pin has a flattened triangular tip lying in the pistol plane, so it is very strong in this direction, which is the same as the shell-ejection direction.

These are strikers from my G22/G27. Instead of traditional round firing pins that takes on the entire shock of primer cup/powder ignition, triangular lance shaped narrow Glock striker tips have box shaped body that bumps the back of the breach wall under spring tension to buffer against shock of primer cup/powder ignition, limiting the striker tip travel against the primer cup - it is for this reason why spent cases from Glocks have distinct rectangle indentations on the spent primer cups which are from rectangle slots on the breach wall. (FYI, carbon fouling build up can hard pack under the rectangle face of the striker body behind the breach wall - if/when this occurs, especially from dirty loads, striker tip travel past the breach wall can be limited and result in lighter primer cup indentations/failure to ignite. Cleaning/scraping the back of breach wall of hard packed fouling build up with precision flat screwdriver and cleaning with gun solvent will return proper striker tip travel to indent the primer cup deep enough to ignite).

The pistol according to this invention has latch means for releasably securing the barrel to the frame. This means includes a projection on the barrel movable along a path on sliding of the barrel and breech block on the frame, a frame abutment on the frame and normally in the path, and means for moving the frame abutment out of engagement with the barrel projection. The frame abutment can be an eccentric pivotal into and out of the in-path position, or can be a slide displaceable parallel to the clip hole in the frame. Either arrangement makes removal of the slide relatively easy.

In addition, the pistol of this invention has a clip removably engageable with the frame and holding a supply of cartridges displaceable by the breech into the chamber, and safety means engageable between the clip and the link means for permitting the abutment to move out of engagement with the firing element only when at least one cartridge remains in the clip. To this end, the clip has a cartridge follower and the safety means includes an element on the frame engageable through the clip with the follower. Thus, when the last shot is fired, the slide will not return forward, so that a new clip can be inserted with automatic chambering of the first cartridge (When the last round is fired from the magazine, a notch on the magazine follower will push up on the slide lock lever to lock the slide back).

The pistol according to this invention is set up so that the abutment cannot catch the firing element and recock and fire it when the trigger is held back. Instead the trigger must be released between shots to move the link forward into its forward position where it can engage the abutment. In other words, the abutment and link can only engage one another when the firing element is in the intermediate position and the link is in the trigger-unactuated position.

With the pistol of this invention, releasing and firing are done with the same element. Thus, the condition of the pistol is the same before the first shot as it is before the subsequent shots. This is attained when the guide which establishes the path of the abutment during the loading motion blocks projection of the abutment into the travel path of the firing pin or hammer. The pistol is therefore always uncocked or partially uncocked (Trigger can only be reset to fire by returning the trigger back forward, but because the striker is pre-loaded 1/3 way by the cycling of the slide, full reset of trigger is done when the trigger moves back 2/3 way which results in shorter trigger reset for faster follow up shots/double taps).

Handling of the pistol according to the instant invention is therefore as simple as possible. The pistol is ready after chambering of the cartridge in the barrel for shooting at any time and is nonetheless completely safe from unintentional shots. Similarly in this condition the pistol is fully drop- and jar-resistant. As a result of the unchanging trigger force, accuracy is increased. Simple and safe handling of the pistol is ensured even for the 5 unpracticed user. (With no external frame/slide mounted safety to engage/disengage, as soon as the round is chambered, the pistol can remain safe from accidental discharge, even when dropped, until the trigger is pulled which automatically disengages internal safeties - this allows the shooter to focus more on the target. Since every trigger pull is the same, including the initial first pull unlike DA/SA triggers, especially with lightened trigger from 1/3 "pre-loading" of trigger and shorter 2/3 reset, greater shot-to-shot accuracy can be achieved with faster follow-up shots/double taps).

As a result of the small number of parts and the possible fitting of the firing mechanism into a small space, the frame can be of one piece, preferably of a synthetic resin, so that the overall weight is substantially less than 10 that of comparable known pistols. In addition, manufacture is simplified and made inexpensive. In fact, the entire frame can be a synthetic-resin casting made with a simple two-piece mold, and the various elements like the firing element and guide for the slide can be formed 15 by metallic inserts (The four metallic inserts on the frame for the slide act as "self cleaning" slide guides so even when slide channels are filled with debri/dirt/fouling, cycling action of the slide cleans and clears debri/dirt/fouling out of the slide channels. Not only can the frame be manufactured at lower cost using polymer body, high speed videos shows polymer body flexing during firing and IMO, absorbing some of the recoil to reduce shock/felt recoil to the shooter which allows faster recovery for follow-up shots/double taps). (much more at abstract link with detailed pictures)

barnbwt · Nov 13, 2012

That last paragraph is the important one, BTW

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Most advanced handgun and bio-engineering

Certaindeaf

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Guillermo

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Skribs

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winfried

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Sam1911

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beatledog7

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