I bought a troy defense carbine in November(yet to fire it), and replaced the stock with a Magpul Moe, and the grip with a small, Troy battle grip. I am considering a trade for a nib PTR91 KF, with a few mags. I have always been very interested in this rifle. considering everything, make a recommendation....keep the Troy, or trade.
help me with a decision between troy defense carbine and ptr 91
- Thread starter carlrodd
- Start date
- Status
stubbicatt
Member
Hard to say. If you have a specific use for one of these rifles, analyze how well the tool accomplishes what it is you set out to do.
If like 99% of the people, it is for fun, blasting at the range, pride of ownership, etc., then the factors to consider are going to be different for you.
Speaking for myself, I enjoy shooting my PTR91 more than I enjoy any of the 223s I own. But for me, the joy of shooting the thing is largely attributable to the accessories which I have bought for it over the years. It is supremely accurate. The 308 is a pretty slick round for a whole lot of uses. I guess I have bonded with this rifle, whereas my 223's are sort of utilitarian and milquetoast in my estimation.
See if you can find someone who shoots the PTR91 and ask to run a few rounds through it. The rifle is pretty heavy. Recoil is more pronounced. Ammunition is more expensive than the 223.
Good luck on your choice.
If like 99% of the people, it is for fun, blasting at the range, pride of ownership, etc., then the factors to consider are going to be different for you.
Speaking for myself, I enjoy shooting my PTR91 more than I enjoy any of the 223s I own. But for me, the joy of shooting the thing is largely attributable to the accessories which I have bought for it over the years. It is supremely accurate. The 308 is a pretty slick round for a whole lot of uses. I guess I have bonded with this rifle, whereas my 223's are sort of utilitarian and milquetoast in my estimation.
See if you can find someone who shoots the PTR91 and ask to run a few rounds through it. The rifle is pretty heavy. Recoil is more pronounced. Ammunition is more expensive than the 223.
Good luck on your choice.
Gordon
Member
That Troy Carbine was one of the best deals around for an excellent AR weapon. You won't be getting one again for a long time or ever.The PTRs can be good but they are no preban HK91 IMHO. Unless you have an AR that is equal to the Troy or better I would keep it.
Lets back up and ask the more salient question: What do you want to be doing with your rifle?
The Troy carbine in 5.56 makes a more efficient home defense weapon, and the 5.56 caliber makes it cheaper to shoot then a .308 rifle. Thus, the Troy is a better blasting gun then the PTR91 unless you have deep pockets. The AR15 platform has very good ergonomics and its easy to master running this rifle quickly and efficiently. With typical 5.56 loadings, you're looking 300-400 yards for small game, and 700-800 yards for paper punching. The melonite coated barrel should offer excellent accuracy. Recoil is somewhere between mild and non-existent.
The PTR91 is a clone of the HK91. Its heavier then a 16" AR15 like the troy. The ergonomics have a distinct teutonic flavor to them. There controls are a little more clunky versus an AR15 and the 91 will be slower to run then an AR15. The roller delayed blowback system is known for its reliability and its extreme dirtyness. An other quirk of this system is it starts to have excessive recoil with bullet weights that are too far outside of its ideal tuned weight. Most PTR91's are tuned to shoot 150 grain loads with recoil increasing with higher bullet weights. From having shot a AR10 and a HK91 side-by-side, the recoil of the 91 is of same force but of a sharper quality, this is with both shooting 147gr M80 ball. Accuracy from the 91 should be excellent. Depending on the load used 1000+ yard shooting is easily doable, and this rifle is suitable for up to deer sized game plus. Maintenance wise, the 91's exhibit some unique maintenance concerns thanks to the roller-delayed system and bolt gap. Some PTR91's that do not have the HK chamber fluting (All except the PTR91 GI) do exhibit ammo sensitivity and will struggle with some .308 surplus.
My overall analysis? Keep the Troy Carbine. The PTR91 is a interesting rifle, and I think its worth adding to the collection, but I would not trade an excellent AR15 like the Troy for one, unless I already owned several examples of the Troy. I think you will get more mileage and use out of the Troy by far over the PTR91.
The Troy carbine in 5.56 makes a more efficient home defense weapon, and the 5.56 caliber makes it cheaper to shoot then a .308 rifle. Thus, the Troy is a better blasting gun then the PTR91 unless you have deep pockets. The AR15 platform has very good ergonomics and its easy to master running this rifle quickly and efficiently. With typical 5.56 loadings, you're looking 300-400 yards for small game, and 700-800 yards for paper punching. The melonite coated barrel should offer excellent accuracy. Recoil is somewhere between mild and non-existent.
The PTR91 is a clone of the HK91. Its heavier then a 16" AR15 like the troy. The ergonomics have a distinct teutonic flavor to them. There controls are a little more clunky versus an AR15 and the 91 will be slower to run then an AR15. The roller delayed blowback system is known for its reliability and its extreme dirtyness. An other quirk of this system is it starts to have excessive recoil with bullet weights that are too far outside of its ideal tuned weight. Most PTR91's are tuned to shoot 150 grain loads with recoil increasing with higher bullet weights. From having shot a AR10 and a HK91 side-by-side, the recoil of the 91 is of same force but of a sharper quality, this is with both shooting 147gr M80 ball. Accuracy from the 91 should be excellent. Depending on the load used 1000+ yard shooting is easily doable, and this rifle is suitable for up to deer sized game plus. Maintenance wise, the 91's exhibit some unique maintenance concerns thanks to the roller-delayed system and bolt gap. Some PTR91's that do not have the HK chamber fluting (All except the PTR91 GI) do exhibit ammo sensitivity and will struggle with some .308 surplus.
My overall analysis? Keep the Troy Carbine. The PTR91 is a interesting rifle, and I think its worth adding to the collection, but I would not trade an excellent AR15 like the Troy for one, unless I already owned several examples of the Troy. I think you will get more mileage and use out of the Troy by far over the PTR91.
I wouldn't consider that a straight trade.
If you really want a 308, fine but know you are getting into a heavy rifle that heats up FAST and isn't going to have the accuracy of a bolt action rifle.
Swap a few parts on your AR and you can free float the barrel, icrease your accuracy or bolt scopes and lasers on it until it weighs as much as a PTR.
AR parts are not cheap RIGHT NOW, but if you break a part there are literally millions of them in the marketplace, not so much with a PTR. AR mags are also in the millions and in a wide range of capacities to suit your local laws. PTR is pretty much one size, UNLESS you find a 5 shot HK 'hunting' mag.
If you really want a 308, fine but know you are getting into a heavy rifle that heats up FAST and isn't going to have the accuracy of a bolt action rifle.
Swap a few parts on your AR and you can free float the barrel, icrease your accuracy or bolt scopes and lasers on it until it weighs as much as a PTR.
AR parts are not cheap RIGHT NOW, but if you break a part there are literally millions of them in the marketplace, not so much with a PTR. AR mags are also in the millions and in a wide range of capacities to suit your local laws. PTR is pretty much one size, UNLESS you find a 5 shot HK 'hunting' mag.
I am in no position financially right now to own 2 rifles....whatever I have will be my only rifle. Going to the range is great, but my priority is that the one rifle I own is my "fighting rifle". I have plenty of experience with ARs....i have none with any 308 rifle, but I figure it would be a lot of fun to become familiar and proficient with a new rifle. Can the 16 inch models be considered "handy" in any way?....or is this just a brute/tank rifle all around?
HM2PAC
Member
I love my PTR. Very handy rifle once you learn to use it.
Many will say that the ergonomics are clunky, but I just don't see it. It does operate differently as compared to the AR's. But then again, it doesn't serve the same purpose as an AR.
Charging handle is on the left. This allows you to keep your cheekweld and sight picture while changing the mag with the left hand and racking the handle with your left hand. There is no bolt hold-open after the last round of the magazine. So if you aren't counting your rounds, you will have to rack the handle after you seat another magazine.
The charge handle does NOT come back easy. You must pull HARD. I would recommend doing pull-ups on a regular basis. This is not a joke.
It is heavy and the recoil is brutal. But you've got to take a little to give a little, right?
Two years ago I went to a tactical carbine course. Everyone else on the line had AR's, I had a PTR. I did fine. Passed the course just as well as the guys with AR's. The thing that set the PTR aside was the .308 round itself. The farthest back we ever got was the 100yd line. At that distance the AR's were pinging the steel, I was still knocking the plates off of their stands. After a while it was quite funny. Each student shot 1000 rds in 2 days, that charging handle took skin from my left hand by the end of the 1st morning during a dry fire snap-in.
Trading it equal for a Troy? I don't think you'll be getting your monies worth. The Troy is much more expensive.
Many will say that the ergonomics are clunky, but I just don't see it. It does operate differently as compared to the AR's. But then again, it doesn't serve the same purpose as an AR.
Charging handle is on the left. This allows you to keep your cheekweld and sight picture while changing the mag with the left hand and racking the handle with your left hand. There is no bolt hold-open after the last round of the magazine. So if you aren't counting your rounds, you will have to rack the handle after you seat another magazine.
The charge handle does NOT come back easy. You must pull HARD. I would recommend doing pull-ups on a regular basis. This is not a joke.
It is heavy and the recoil is brutal. But you've got to take a little to give a little, right?
Two years ago I went to a tactical carbine course. Everyone else on the line had AR's, I had a PTR. I did fine. Passed the course just as well as the guys with AR's. The thing that set the PTR aside was the .308 round itself. The farthest back we ever got was the 100yd line. At that distance the AR's were pinging the steel, I was still knocking the plates off of their stands. After a while it was quite funny. Each student shot 1000 rds in 2 days, that charging handle took skin from my left hand by the end of the 1st morning during a dry fire snap-in.
Trading it equal for a Troy? I don't think you'll be getting your monies worth. The Troy is much more expensive.
Keep the Troy.
stubbicatt
Member
Lots of people like the AR15. If you do, then stick with what you have.
As far as being quickly fouled, the PTR GI series have remedied the issue of tar sealed ammo. This is an issue which was a big deal 10 years ago when surplus 7.62 NATO was readily available. However this is less of an issue today considering that the South African, which was once so available and so inexpensive, has dried up. Also, at a dollar a round for present day 7.62NATO, I have chosen to handload my ammo, which solves the problem all around.
And yes, I have experienced the failure to extract issues after less than 20 rounds of surplus ammo in my rifle.
The headspace issues I *think* you are referring to is bolt gap. I say this as headspace on a Vorgrimmler action is not the same as it is on a rotating, or tilting, bolt action. I have read many accounts of shrinking bolt gap over the years. I do not know whether these issues have been remedied by PTR 91, Inc. They have treated me well, and been of considerable help to me with early issues with my rifle, even though it was built by the predecessor company, JLD Enterprises, Inc. I presently have +4 rollers in my rifle, and a spare set of +6 rollers in case it becomes an issue. The rifle seems to have stabilized at +4.
It is a mixed bag as far as the ammo you would shoot in it, and reports of recoil interest me, as subjectively, all 308's recoil comparatively. It is not severe, but it is no maiden's caress either. To ameliorate recoil impulse, the HK heavy buffer, which is available online these days, sort of changes the character of the recoil impulse, makes it seem less noticeable, perhaps more a push than a shove. I don't know.
It shoots the 155 Hornady bullets like a house afire. The performance of the rifle with ammunition it likes is astounding, and it is one of the reasons I don't see myself selling this rifle ever in my life. It is frankly just amazing. I've told the tale before, but I've shot prairie dogs on the run with this rifle at over 400 yards.
The rifle as it came was a good one, but as I alluded to in my first posting in this thread, the accessories and upgrades I have accomplished over the years with the rifle are what make it "mine" so to speak. -- The paddle mag release, ambi safety, trigger job, wide fore end, heavy buffer, Magpul stock, skateboard tape on the pistolgrip, Versapod spud and bipod, the Cooley Compensator for 3 gun, the Hensholdt 4x scope, the Bundeswehr scope illuminator, the monopod for the rear, all of these things have made my rifle suit me just fine. The 22 lr kit is a real score given the prices of ammo and components these days. I used to have the "blue round" bolt carrier and tried that ammo, but for some reason it just didn't work well in my rifle.
The $.50 magazines were a bonus, especially when considering the second to none robust nature of the build quality of these mags.
It is just a whole lotta fun. Unlike many here, I am not an armchair commando. I don't worry about blue beanies, nor meltdown of the economy or any of that sort of thing. I don't own a "fighting rifle" as in my neck of the woods, the only thing I am likely to ever fight is old age and boredom -- the latter of which, ironically, this rifle defeats handily each time I shoot it.
Good luck and may you be forever young.
As far as being quickly fouled, the PTR GI series have remedied the issue of tar sealed ammo. This is an issue which was a big deal 10 years ago when surplus 7.62 NATO was readily available. However this is less of an issue today considering that the South African, which was once so available and so inexpensive, has dried up. Also, at a dollar a round for present day 7.62NATO, I have chosen to handload my ammo, which solves the problem all around.
And yes, I have experienced the failure to extract issues after less than 20 rounds of surplus ammo in my rifle.
The headspace issues I *think* you are referring to is bolt gap. I say this as headspace on a Vorgrimmler action is not the same as it is on a rotating, or tilting, bolt action. I have read many accounts of shrinking bolt gap over the years. I do not know whether these issues have been remedied by PTR 91, Inc. They have treated me well, and been of considerable help to me with early issues with my rifle, even though it was built by the predecessor company, JLD Enterprises, Inc. I presently have +4 rollers in my rifle, and a spare set of +6 rollers in case it becomes an issue. The rifle seems to have stabilized at +4.
It is a mixed bag as far as the ammo you would shoot in it, and reports of recoil interest me, as subjectively, all 308's recoil comparatively. It is not severe, but it is no maiden's caress either. To ameliorate recoil impulse, the HK heavy buffer, which is available online these days, sort of changes the character of the recoil impulse, makes it seem less noticeable, perhaps more a push than a shove. I don't know.
It shoots the 155 Hornady bullets like a house afire. The performance of the rifle with ammunition it likes is astounding, and it is one of the reasons I don't see myself selling this rifle ever in my life. It is frankly just amazing. I've told the tale before, but I've shot prairie dogs on the run with this rifle at over 400 yards.
The rifle as it came was a good one, but as I alluded to in my first posting in this thread, the accessories and upgrades I have accomplished over the years with the rifle are what make it "mine" so to speak. -- The paddle mag release, ambi safety, trigger job, wide fore end, heavy buffer, Magpul stock, skateboard tape on the pistolgrip, Versapod spud and bipod, the Cooley Compensator for 3 gun, the Hensholdt 4x scope, the Bundeswehr scope illuminator, the monopod for the rear, all of these things have made my rifle suit me just fine. The 22 lr kit is a real score given the prices of ammo and components these days. I used to have the "blue round" bolt carrier and tried that ammo, but for some reason it just didn't work well in my rifle.
The $.50 magazines were a bonus, especially when considering the second to none robust nature of the build quality of these mags.
It is just a whole lotta fun. Unlike many here, I am not an armchair commando. I don't worry about blue beanies, nor meltdown of the economy or any of that sort of thing. I don't own a "fighting rifle" as in my neck of the woods, the only thing I am likely to ever fight is old age and boredom -- the latter of which, ironically, this rifle defeats handily each time I shoot it.
Good luck and may you be forever young.
Last edited:
MachIVshooter
Member
I have a Century G3 (actually got a good one) and an Armalite AR-10 Carbine. I love the 7.62, but I honestly shoot my 5.56 ARs a lot more than either of those two, mainly due to ammo cost (.308 is usually about double what 5.56 is).
If I were you, I'd probably keep the Troy, unless you just find the PTR that appealing. It'd be an easier decision perhaps if is was a collapsing stock para model, but that's a $300 upgrade to a fixed stock G3/91 clone.
If I were you, I'd probably keep the Troy, unless you just find the PTR that appealing. It'd be an easier decision perhaps if is was a collapsing stock para model, but that's a $300 upgrade to a fixed stock G3/91 clone.
Welding Rod
Member
That being the case I would definitely rule out moving to a 308, unless maybe you handload.
Okiegunner
Member
Personally, I would keep the Troy.
- Status