NEW lever 444 or 358

The intended game are camels, donkeys and wild horses!

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Then I hope you find the nearest restaurant.

Camel I would not shoot unless it spit on me or smelled really bad.
Donkey I would maybe shoot if it would not shut up.
Wild Horses too beautiful to contemplate.
Of course you could be just kidding I suppose....

Consider that the .444 is basically a .44 magnum in a longer case. you are still shooting a .429 pistol bullet. In my opinion (and it is just an opinion), for something that large, you would be better off with a .45/70.

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You can shoot pistol bullets in a 444, but you certainly don't have to. There are plenty of tough .429 bullets out there.

witchhunter said:

Consider that the .444 is basically a .44 magnum in a longer case. you are still shooting a .429 pistol bullet. In my opinion (and it is just an opinion), for something that large, you would be better off with a .45/70.

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A 300 grain 45 caliber bullet is superior to a 300 grain 43 caliber bullet????

A 300 grain 45 caliber bullet is superior to a 300 grain 43 caliber bullet????

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45-70:
300 gr JHP 2,275 ft/s (693 m/s) 3,449 ft·lbf (4,676 J)

Yes, a 300 gr .458" bullet at 2,275 fps is far better than a 300 gr .429" bullet at 1,400 fps (.44 Mag), especially when one needs to reach out past 100 yds.

But, really not much better than the 300 gr .429" bullet at 2,000 fps from a .444 Marlin

Until you look at energy (3,449 lbs/ft 45-70 vs 2665 lbs/ft for .444). They are both going to shed energy fast given very similar bullet design, so the edge goes to the 45-70 which will hold energy longer. At 100 - 150 yards, it's probably more academic than practical, but the point is that the 45-70 even with its old fashioned 19th century trajectory will drop 600 kilo camels at 250 yards. I wouldn't try that with the .444. YMMV.

StrawHat,

As someone stated earlier, it is just hard to find .44 caliber bullets that are meant to stand up to 2000 fps impacting a densely-built game animal since they are typically designed for either .44 Special or .44 magnum velocities.

.45-70 shoots .458" bullets which are distinct from the .451-.452" bullets used in pistols. You can shoot bullets intended for .45-70 power levels or you can load it with bullets meant for big game African power levels like .458 Win Mag, .458 Lott, .460 Weatherby, etc. Regardless, these bullets are going to hold up better for the purpose on tough game.

Granted if you are just going to shoot hard-cast, non-expanding bullets in each, .444 Marlin and .45-70 is kind of a six-of-one, half-dozen of the other. I like the options posed by the .45-70 myself.

andym79 said:

Hi,

I am looking to buy a new lever to add to my 30-30 and 22.

I am considering a 444 or 358!

As far as I know the 358 has better ballistics, but is limited in that its only available in the not so affordable BLR (Savage 99 in 358 being rare)

A second hand Marlin however in 444 would be a lot more affordable!

How accurate can a 444 be at say 150 yards?

Thoughts 444 VS 358?

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I LOVE my Marlin .444 rifle which is my favorite rifle ever.

How accurate is it, I can shoot a 1.5 inch group with my Skinner sights at 100 yards. It is flatter shooting than a 45-70 and in such is accurate out to about 200 yards. You may want to check out the Hornady superperformance loads that they have updated.

http://www.hornady.com/store/444-Marlin-265-gr-interlock-FP-Superformance/

Folks need to get updated on criticism of the .444 and the so called "pistol" bullet argument. The current loads from Hornady and Buffalo Bore are not at all pistol bullets and are plenty capable of doing the job. My woods bullets are from BB.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=156

RPRNY said:

45-70:
300 gr JHP 2,275 ft/s (693 m/s) 3,449 ft·lbf (4,676 J)

Yes, a 300 gr .458" bullet at 2,275 fps is far better than a 300 gr .429" bullet at 1,400 fps (.44 Mag), especially when one needs to reach out past 100 yds.

But, really not much better than the 300 gr .429" bullet at 2,000 fps from a .444 Marlin

Until you look at energy (3,449 lbs/ft 45-70 vs 2665 lbs/ft for .444). They are both going to shed energy fast given very similar bullet design, so the edge goes to the 45-70 which will hold energy longer. At 100 - 150 yards, it's probably more academic than practical, but the point is that the 45-70 even with its old fashioned 19th century trajectory will drop 600 kilo camels at 250 yards. I wouldn't try that with the .444. YMMV.

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A 45/70 300 grain bullet has an SD of .204 BC .206

A 429" 270 grain bullet has an SD of .210 BC .193

You can push the 270 grain out of a 444 Marlin at 2,250 fps, and with equil bullet construction for both, i bet any animal shot at 250 yards won't know which bullet hit them and will have equil penetration, perhaps with the .429" having a slight advantage...

BTW, my Speer #14 doesn't show a load for the "lever" 45/70 with a 300 grain bullet above 2,001 fps.

DM

RPRNY said:

45-70:
300 gr JHP 2,275 ft/s (693 m/s) 3,449 ft·lbf (4,676 J)

Yes, a 300 gr .458" bullet at 2,275 fps is far better than a 300 gr .429" bullet at 1,400 fps (.44 Mag), especially when one needs to reach out past 100 yds.

But, really not much better than the 300 gr .429" bullet at 2,000 fps from a .444 Marlin

Until you look at energy (3,449 lbs/ft 45-70 vs 2665 lbs/ft for .444). They are both going to shed energy fast given very similar bullet design, so the edge goes to the 45-70 which will hold energy longer. At 100 - 150 yards, it's probably more academic than practical, but the point is that the 45-70 even with its old fashioned 19th century trajectory will drop 600 kilo camels at 250 yards. I wouldn't try that with the .444. YMMV.

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Sorry, how about 1000 kg American buffalo with a .444, I guess you wouldn't try that either, but in fact, the .444 is not a slouch my friend. Go to the link and then look under reviews.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=156

Some of the modern .444 factory ammo is a very reliable big game rifle. I own it as my go to woods/bear rifle. I use the BB 335 gr at 2025 fps and feel comfortable with whatever is up here in the Idaho woods.

For those that handload, folks are pushing the limits of the .444 up to 4000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Yes, the .444 is a real load and stating the 45-70 is better is not the argument to use at all. The .444 is a flatter shooting, more accurate round that packs plenty of punch WITHOUT the recoil issues of the stout 45-70 loads.

Great gun, love it and glad beyond all measure that I went with the .444.

444 Fanboys, time to untwist your knickers and take off the rose colored glasses. I was completely objective in my comparison of thee two rounds, and cut the 444 some slack by going with a 300 gr load. I can't find any 400gr + data for the 444...

I do apologize however. The 300 gr at 2275 fps was data for a Handi Rifle.

A Marlin only load in Lyman 49 is 300 gr at 2038. Lyman maxes the 444 300 gr at 1838. As you failed to note, I said above, "not much difference".

We get it, you LOVE the 444. But the 45-70 starts where the 444 ends, at 300 grs. Add another 105 grs and you get to the 45-70 wheelhouse - at 1800 fps.

Nothing wrong with the 444. The 45-70 has the edge for big giant animals like camels (I can't believe we are having this exchange in any event, fairly surreal).

Enjoy the 444 Marlin. It's the greatest. Nothing else can touch it. Ballistics tables lie in a giant global conspiracy to undermine the greatest cartridge that ever was....

Relax, it's not like you're getting a commission on 444 Marlin sales, right?

RPRNY said:

444 Fanboys, time to untwist your knickers and take off the rose colored glasses. I was completely objective in my comparison of thee two rounds, and cut the 444 some slack by going with a 300 gr load. I can't find any 400gr + data for the 444...

I do apologize however. The 300 gr at 2275 fps was data for a Handi Rifle.

A Marlin only load in Lyman 49 is 300 gr at 2038. Lyman maxes the 444 300 gr at 1838. As you failed to note, I said above, "not much difference".

We get it, you LOVE the 444. But the 45-70 starts where the 444 ends, at 300 grs. Add another 105 grs and you get to the 45-70 wheelhouse - at 1800 fps.

Nothing wrong with the 444. The 45-70 has the edge for big giant animals like camels (I can't believe we are having this exchange in any event, fairly surreal).

Enjoy the 444 Marlin. It's the greatest. Nothing else can touch it. Ballistics tables lie in a giant global conspiracy to undermine the greatest cartridge that ever was....

Relax, it's not like you're getting a commission on 444 Marlin sales, right?

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Nope, just tired of the false reviews against a great caliber that has a commanding bark at much less recoil. No one disputes that the top end loads for 45-70 exceed the max loads with the .444.

The folks that hand load do push 405 gr at quite high velocities. One data source noted 1837 fps for a 405 grain hand load. Others claim even higher velocities for this 405 gr load. Not a shabby figure at all. Certainly not max 45-70 but the 45-70 ain't no .458 either.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

Sorry, didn't mean to bag on the .444, just noted that he was going to use it on very large animals. In my opinion, the .45/70 is a better choice due to it's larger case capacity and better bullet selection in larger weights. Nothing against the .444, just offering another option.

Alaska444 said:

Nope, just tired of the false reviews against a great caliber

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Exactly, in fact i already told the OP to get the 358, so why am i being called a 444Fanboy??

BTW, i stand by that origional post!

DM

How many of you have actually SHOT 300+gr bullets from your .444 ???

And does it have the 1/38" twist w/micro-groove rifling ??? of most .444's...Especially those made in the '60, '70's, and early '80's.

REMEMBER; THE ORIGINAL POSTER IS IN " AUSTRALIA"....... AS IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE.....

Where he's at VARMITS ARE REALLY PESTS.... As in that they will attack your car, eating the trim moulding off of it. And if you happen to be driving down the road when they decide to run where your car is, they will destroy your car.... And possibly you in it !!! Ever seen a car "stomped" by an angry large "ungulate"....??? Think a Moose with a BAD ATTITUDE !!!

Camel's DO SMELL BAD !!!!!! AND DON'T JUST SPIT, EITHER !!!
DONKEY'S are call "JACK-ASSES" for a REASON !!! (or, if you have ever been around donkey's, you know what being a "jack-ass" means !!!
And if you've ever had a herd of wild horses get on your spread, you know, again, what a "wild jack-ass" is...

Also, "down-under" it can be extreamly difficult to get reloading components, and firearms.... There isn't the plethora of Marlin firearms available. Hence, He'll be "BETTER" OFF with a .45/70....
Sorry, I've just spent too much time over at ...marlinowners.com and dealt with too many .444 owners who've never shot a .45/70.... I'm not "slighting" the .444, but there IS a reason that the .458Lott, .470 NE, .505Gibbs, ect are more popular in Africa than the .444....
Sometimes Bigger IS better....

Question for the OP: do you handload your own ammunition?

GooseGestapo said:

How many of you have actually SHOT 300+gr bullets from your .444 ???

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GooseGestapo said:

And does it have the 1/38" twist w/micro-groove rifling ??? of most .444's...Especially those made in the '60, '70's, and early '80's.

REMEMBER; THE ORIGINAL POSTER IS IN " AUSTRALIA"....... AS IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE.....

Where he's at VARMITS ARE REALLY PESTS.... As in that they will attack your car, eating the trim moulding off of it. And if you happen to be driving down the road when they decide to run where your car is, they will destroy your car.... And possibly you in it !!! Ever seen a car "stomped" by an angry large "ungulate"....??? Think a Moose with a BAD ATTITUDE !!!

Camel's DO SMELL BAD !!!!!! AND DON'T JUST SPIT, EITHER !!!
DONKEY'S are call "JACK-ASSES" for a REASON !!! (or, if you have ever been around donkey's, you know what being a "jack-ass" means !!!
And if you've ever had a herd of wild horses get on your spread, you know, again, what a "wild jack-ass" is...

Also, "down-under" it can be extreamly difficult to get reloading components, and firearms.... There isn't the plethora of Marlin firearms available. Hence, He'll be "BETTER" OFF with a .45/70....
Sorry, I've just spent too much time over at ...marlinowners.com and dealt with too many .444 owners who've never shot a .45/70.... I'm not "slighting" the .444, but there IS a reason that the .458Lott, .470 NE, .505Gibbs, ect are more popular in Africa than the .444....
Sometimes Bigger IS better....

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I do all the time with my Buffalo Bore 335 gr at 2025 fps. My Marlin has the 1:20 twist. No problem handling up to 405 grain if I hand loaded my own.

Once again, way too much false information on these wonderful guns. Yes, it shoots more than pistol bullets and it can shoot up to 405 gr bullets as well. No, it is NOT the biggest caliber you can get. For it's own purpose, it is indeed a great caliber. I wouldn't trade mine for anything. And while we are talking about it, in Africa, the 45-70 is castigated as much as the .444 here in America. Why, because it can't compete with the .416 Rigby or the other maxed out calibers. I guess that is justice in some ways. You reap what you sow.

andym79 said:

A good suggestion, but as these are not standard stock in Australia they cost around $2300 landed here!
The BLR is around $1400 and a Marlin in 444 or 45-70 around $1000



Actually on the international market, you would be surprised by the demand for camel and horse meat!



Almost exclusively, in fact I only ever really buy ammo for my 223, my 30-30 and 6.5x55 have never seen factory ammo!

So all three of the cartridges being discussed are versatile. This thread has just added a third option to my deliberation!

Can someone elaborate on the recoil issue of the 45-70 and why its a lot higher than the 444?

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Depends mainly on the 45-70 load. 45-70 ranges from very tame to more than stout. Recoil is very subjective. I find my .444 to be quite mild more like a 20 ga than anything while others think it is a bit much. What bothers one person, won't bother another.

A friend of mine is about the skinniest person I have seen and he loves the .416 Rigby, .375 H&H. So, recoil is quite subjective, but depending on the load, the 45-70 can get above 40 ft-lbs of recoil energy while the .444 gets a bit above 30 in maxed out loads.

I have my .444 as mainly a woods gun but once I get my Idaho residency hopefully in the next 12 months, I am tempted to use it since most of the moose and elk my friends get are less than a hundred yards. My main purpose for having it is as a bear defense gun. It ain't the top of the list, but with my Buffalo Bore 335 grainers, I feel confident with good shot placement it will stop whatever needs stopping should the situation occur. Not too many large predators in Australia other than the crocs from what I have heard, so that may limit the application to Australia.

For longer range, I have my .300 WSM Browning BLR which in some folks hands is a very legitimate 1000 yard rifle. If you are considering a BLR, you won't go wrong with it at all since their quality is excellent. I would think a BLR with a high impact but a bit longer range caliber would fit Australia in some ways better than my venerable .444. Our woods here in Northern Idaho are very dense making my .444 a perfect fit. Not sure what kind of terrain you hunt camels and such.

andym79 said:

Can someone elaborate on the recoil issue of the 45-70 and why its a lot higher than the 444?

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Sure, the 45-70 with heavy loads shoots much heavier bullets at only slightly lower velocities than the 444. Therefore it recoils more.

Those who advocate the 45-70 state, quite rightly, that it can be more powerful than the 444. What they ignore is that the 444 with proper loads is quite powerful enough for most big game. I would prefer a heavy loaded 45-70 if I had to stop a grizzly charge. OTOH, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the largest elk (or camel, donkey or wild horse) that ever walked with the right load from a 444. The 45-70 may be more, but most of the time a 444 is plenty enough.

natman said:

Sure, the 45-70 with heavy loads shoots much heavier bullets at only slightly lower velocities than the 444. Therefore it recoils more.

Those who advocate the 45-70 state, quite rightly, that it can be more powerful than the 444. What they ignore is that the 444 with proper loads is quite powerful enough for most big game. I would prefer a heavy loaded 45-70 if I had to stop a grizzly charge. OTOH, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the largest elk (or camel, donkey or wild horse) that ever walked with the right load from a 444. The 45-70 may be more, but most of the time a 444 is plenty enough.

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+1 Very well stated Natman, that is exactly the issue. It is also enough to stop a grizzly. I have kept my eyes open for quite while for a bear defense against griz with a .444 and I guess about a year or so a Canadian stopped a large griz with two shots and it went a short distance and died. It did abort a full charge. Here is a thread I started on TFL from that article.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4806109

Andy, not to add futher confusion but the more I use my 405 WCF (Winchester 1895), the less I find use for the 45-70. The 405 is everything the 45-70 is and a lot more. A 300 grain bullet at 2200 is normal for the 405 and right in 375 territory. Not sure how common they are in Oz but certainly food for thought.

andym79 said:

No I have not consider the 405, I would imagine they are very rare in Australia!



I beg to differ here but a 300 grain slug going at 2200 is only just at the bottom end of, not really true 375 H&H territory there is around 1300 ft/lbs of difference! 45-70 performance certainly.

Now you have got me thinking, as I like to try and collect the less common, I am still trying to find a WIN 94 in .356 to do avail down here!

An interesting point though, is why is the 348 considered the most firepower in a lever, when without loading it very hot its a good 500ft/lbs shy of the 405!

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You may want to look at the BLR in .450 which is a maxed out 45-70. Starting with their 30-06, you have about 7 or 8 calibers in the BLR that should fit the bill for what you are looking at. I would suspect that you have 30-06 readily available ammo there as well. 30-06 takes large elk and moose here in Idaho every year. Should be enough and in lever.

The .300 WSM has a shorter stroke than the 30-06. Not sure if you have shot the BLR but the bolt coming back at you the first couple of times you shoot it can be a bit disconcerting.

The Marlin can be a bit of beast with jamming so unless you have someone who understands the "dreaded Marlin jam" and how to fix it, the BLR is sad to say more reliable and higher quality than the Marlin. Nevertheless, my .444 is working well, so push comes to shove, I still prefer the Marlin over the BLR, but don't discount your selection of calibers in the BLR.

The recoil in the BLR is a bit of a strong snap, while the Marlin .444 is just a strong push. My son weighs about 150 pounds and doesn't mind the Marlin .444 recoil, but he doesn't like the .300 WSM at all. He didn't grow up in the woods like I did so he hasn't shot as many rifles as I have, but the recoil is different. The BLR also has detachable magazines between 3 or 4 cartridges at a time making reloading easier, but the Marlin holds 5 +1 to start in .444.

You will have to look at how available your ammo will be as well. I don't have any problem finding my .444 ammo up here and I order online as well.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?fid=003B&cid=034&tid=018

I have owned a Marlin in .444 and a Winchester M88 in .358 Win.

The 265 gr Hornady bullet was designed for the .444 rifle and has a thicker jacket for the higher velocities. That was all I used in that rifle. Now we have partitioned bullets so more are available. The 265 gr bullet was very accurate and good for at least 200 yards. If you want a standard type lever rifle then this is the one. 45/70 would be fine too.

The Winchester 88 was also a fine rifle, much like the BLR in operation. Good bullets are available in 35 cal and it is easy to make 358 cases from 308 brass. The 358 trajectory is better than any 444 load so if shooting at longer ranges is desired then this is the one to go with.

JMHO

ironhead7544 said:

I have owned a Marlin in .444 and a Winchester M88 in .358 Win.

The 265 gr Hornady bullet was designed for the .444 rifle and has a thicker jacket for the higher velocities. That was all I used in that rifle. Now we have partitioned bullets so more are available. The 265 gr bullet was very accurate and good for at least 200 yards. If you want a standard type lever rifle then this is the one. 45/70 would be fine too.

The Winchester 88 was also a fine rifle, much like the BLR in operation. Good bullets are available in 35 cal and it is easy to make 358 cases from 308 brass. The 358 trajectory is better than any 444 load so if shooting at longer ranges is desired then this is the one to go with.

JMHO

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Yes, the .444 is a very accurate 200 yard rifle with high impact.