Why Americans need Assault Weapons

I didn't know the ACLDN made member journals available publicly. I guess ultimately it's a good thing to spread the knowledge. The ACLDN do good work; it's why I'm a member.

Also it's backwoodshome.com, not backwoods.com

Home owners can face multiple armed intruders during home invasion robberies. Limiting the type of firearms and the number of rounds in the magazine for the homeowner may lead to situations where the homeowner runs out of ammunition or not able to hit multiple intruders effectively.

Examples of multiple intruder home invasion robberies in this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8625062#post8625062

... reason Americans need high capacity semi-automatic firearms ... The most pressing reason for making the shift to the semi-auto was that the criminal element had already gone there and the police were outgunned. Officers were facing criminals armed with high-capacity weapons

... one compelling incident that ... retired the pump shotgun and replaced it with the semi-automatic rifle ... was the North Hollywood bank robbery in 1997 ... two career criminals armed with rifles ... illegally converted to full auto ... were confronted by officers armed with .38 Special revolvers, 9mm semi-automatic handguns and pump action shotguns

... two bank robbers had ... full body armor that made the underpowered police weapons all but useless ... realizing the robbers had the upper hand, some officers went to a nearby gun shop, where they obtained semi-automatic AR-15 rifles, magazines and ammunition ... criminal finally was neutralized with shots to his lower extremities, where he was not armored ... 15 years later, virtually all law enforcement agencies and officers are either issued AR-15 style rifles, or have them accessible.

In the context of self defense, why do armed citizens need AR-15 style weapons? Because, the armed citizen faces the VERY SAME criminals that police face.

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I do not dispute the validity of owning an AR-15 if I or anyone wants one. But, why weren't the cops with the pistols and scatterguns able to shoot the criminals in their unprotected legs to begin with - surely several 9mm slugs or a barrelful of buckshot to the kneecaps would go along way to reducing the criminal's ability to fight.

"Couldn't you know...just shoot them in the arm or leg or something?"

greenmtnguy said:

But, why weren't the cops with the pistols and scatterguns able to shoot the criminals in their unprotected legs to begin with?

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Bank robbers wore special custom-made body armor that also covered the legs. Robbers were shooting full-auto AK47s with steel core bullets! If you watch the video of the shooting, you'll see the bad guys taking hits, slow down, but recover and get back to shooting. Bringing pistol/shotgun to a full-auto AK47/steel core bullet/body armor fight and it's bad news for the cops.

Shooting starts at 3:00 minute mark of video part 1. At 7:00 minute mark, shooter is hit with 9 of 00 Buckshot pellets and the body armor clad shooter simply turns around and returns fire - 2 of steel core bullets rip through officer wearing body armor. At 1:30 minute mark of video part 3, one of the robbers starts shooting HK91 rifle chambered for .308. At 3:20 minute mark of video part 3, desperate officers start looking for rifles at gun stores. At 4:00 minute mark of video part 3, first SWAT unit arrives on scene and told not to use MP5 as 9mm rounds would not be effective against the robbers' body armor and to use .223 rounds that would defeat robbers' body armor:

Video part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm1PEY8F4xE
Video part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASdauLWH9SQ&NR=1&feature=endscreen
Video part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=N9SWG1f--GY&feature=endscreen
Video part 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=j7X3pRkRfTg&feature=endscreen

Full LAPD radio audio of shooting (42 minutes) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5mkd6r9Kww

Dramatization showing shooting detail - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy9O8AteSyQ

We did deliberate head-shot drills when practicing with mock USPSA stage setups but when you add motion to your targets, it is difficult to hit, to say the least, especially at distance beyond 15 yards. I shoot with city PD/county Sheriff officers from time to time and they do not receive that level of precision training, no way. Add to that the stress of the gunfight with steel core bullets puncturing cars all around you, now you are more focused on staying alive than returning precision fire. If you watch the video, I think the officers were mostly shooting for center of mass (COM) and not being very effective as any hits were deflected by body armor. AR is a much better weapon to engage targets in such situations and distance.

AK s were king in the LA shootout. Now its in the backburner while America's AR rifle is taking the heat.

gym said:

Backwoods.com was just for information on where the info came from, If I choose to put the link in I would have put the entire www along with the name, we are all familiar with mass and his site, thank you.

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Not everyone is familiar with Massad Ayoob. Backwoods.com is a commercial outdoor gear retailer. Backwoodshome.com is not the same as backwoods.com. It's no more correct to state goggle.com is close enough to google.com or that parts.com is shorthand for partsexpress.com

So the argument boils down to we need AR's and AKs to protect us from really bad government and nasty criminals?

Playing devil's advocate here...

Under what plausible circumstance can any one see where the entire governmental structure of the United States decides to suddenly turn tyrannical? The President wakes up one morning and announces he's an emperor and every branch of the Federal Government, state and local governments say "gee OK." This sounds a wee bit silly - when do we get our tin-foil hats? Or perhaps we all decide one day to elect a dictator(s) at all levels of government? Hate to say it but the argument depends on a vast number of improbabilities. Won't happen unless we want it to be so.

So we can't defend ourselves with "lesser" weapons? I wonder how the poor American GI managed WWII so under-gunned with woefully underpowered M1 Garand? Only 8 shots here. A bolt, lever, of semi-auto with only 10 rounds is totally inadequate for self-defense? How did the nation manage before the AR came on scene? What are the odds of facing a home invasion robbery by a mob? Practically zilch.

I think AR's and AK's are great weapons and really cool toys. But please let's not get hysterical and that think should we lose them the end of the world is nigh. We can manage just fine with the older fashioned weapons. Really we can.

The AR is simply the most versatile and capable defensive rifle that is widely available and well know by most people who would be looking for such a defensive arm.

What we should not let them do is to continue to label an AR an "assault weapon". No military would use the civilian AR for an assault of any kind.

Maybe WE should band together and whenever you see the popular phrase ban assault weapons" write or state that an AR is NOT an assault weapon. They are not even assault type weapons. They are simply low caliber, semi-automatic rifles painted black. They are the same as any other semi-automatic rifle.

The M1 Garand may be a good case in point.

The round it fires, the 30-06, is MUCH more powerful the the civilian .223. The bullet is heavier and higher caliber.

But, let's not forget another reason why AR's are so popular. The round is fires WAS cheap and widely available. It is also the lowest caliber and lowest powered true rifle round (among popular, common cartridges) and produced the least recoil.

We should not let this myth that the AR15 is a high powered assault weapon persist. Even though ...we....have let them define what an assault weapon is....I think this is where the fight should be. The minds of the public are made up....assault weapons are bad and no one needs one. We lost that battle.

So.....in my mind...what needs to be done is to take the AR out of this category.

Just my 0.02

Best

J

Captain33036, my wife or my grandmother won't be able to handle the heavy and hard recoiling .30-06 rifle very well. Lighter weight AR is much better for them to handle and shoot accurately.

I am tired of compromises and accommodating the anti-gun crowd who have been carefully and methodically been infringing on our rights, as stated by the Second Amendment to the US Constitution.

I think many feel that the antis have gone too far. How are law abiding NY citizens supposed to defend themselves against multiple attackers, even in their own homes, with 7 lousy rounds? When enough people are victimized and/or die because they ran out of ammunition?

No.

There are disabled and/or elderly gun owners who are not very good with guns and they need as many rounds in the gun to defend their lives and their family's lives.

In fact, I think we should push back and repeal all the stupid gun control laws on the books that did not work so we can give back the lawful citizens of this country the right to self-defense.

Right now, there are people who are living in "not so great" neighborhoods and part of town where criminals and gang members commit crime on 24/7 basis. When police/Sheriff depart budgets are not being increased but rather being cut, how are they supposed to provide better police protection? Even the various police chiefs and Sheriffs state they cannot and the lawful citizens must be able to defend their lives with whatever means ... to include guns.

For the weak, disabled, poor, elderly, etc., the Second Amendment speaks louder than ever before and stupid gun control laws like 7 round magazine capacity will not help to protect their lives.

No more compromises for me!

Why Americans need Assault Weapons

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need's got nothing to do with it

Americans are at liberty to own whatever gun we wish for any reason we wish. We are not bound to justify it by proving a *need*. If the government seeks to change this, take away something we enjoy, and restrict us in any way, it is they who must prove the need, not us.

They have failed miserably in this. Over and over again we've had this threat imposed upon us to no avail, but they keep coming back for more. They have already tried banning their mythical assault weapons for ten years with no good effect at all... NONE. The government isn't even able to properly define that which they wish to ban without getting into ludicrous details, like bayonet lugs and pistol grips.

Do not be deterred by their demand for us to demonstrate a need... the only proper answer is, "It's none of your damned business." The Progressive Left are driven solely by an overwhelming drive to take away our protection of the second amendment, if for no other reason than that an individual free thinker, not subservient to a central government is the absolute antithesis of what they represent.

Whatever reason you have to own any particular type of gun is your business only and none of theirs. As Constitutional law authority Mark Levin says, "...it's called the Bill of Rights, not the bill of needs."

A good article from Marty Hayes - go read it!

So you can discuss more than just the title...

I am sorry but the idea of needing a semi auto rifle to repel multiple home intruders is simply adding fuel to the fashionable idea that gun owners are paranoid at best. Instead..I give you the latest news from Mexico..where people who are fed up with criminals are taking over their villages and arresting criminals. Even some civil authorities are getting on board and approving. They are having to use what poor armaments that they were allowed to have under Mexican law and going against the well armed cartels and other thugs with whatever they can find...old shotguns...22 rifles and a few weapons that the authorities never confiscated. This is one of the best reasons for the 2nd amendment...but not the only. These people have given up on civil authority which is corrupt and ineffective and are taking matters into their own hands...to good effect. Forget about the squad of bad guys coming into your house...it doest fly...this the real world.

There's that old line: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean somebody isn't out to get you."

Saying that something is unlikely to occur is not a sufficient reason to fail to prepare for it. History is rife with instances where the "implausable" becomes the "reality". Nobody predicted the LA riots, but I'll bet you those Korean store owners were glad they had the firepower necessary.

It was beyond implausable that my Mech Recon section (4 M113A1s and 19 men) was going to run into a full battalion of the 271st VC/NVA Regiment while we were conducting a completely routine road sweep between Cu Chi and Trang Bang ... but we did! The outcome was NOT GOOD (4 vehicles lost, 6 KIA 10 WIA)! If we had any reasonable expectation that this was likely to occur that morning, I can guarantee you that things would have been handled differently from our end.

You won't need an AR with a 30-round mag until "that" situation happens and then, if you don't have it, you're likely to be very screwed and perhaps, very dead. Are home invasions with multiple bad guys something that you'll be involved in on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis? Doubtful. But, having found myself on the ugly side of the equation once ... I'll NEVER be in that position again ... NEVER! Not if I have any say in the matter. Do I need an AR with 30 round magazines? You bet your life I do!

Because despite our law enforcements best efforts to prevent them.

There are still Assaults in America??

rc

A statement that multiple armed suspects invading a home happens...yes it does but not often. Mostly it happens in oriental households or where drugs are present. My source is from my service with Special Investigation Section,Robbery Homicide,Los Angeles Police

I don't see how "The most pressing reason for making the shift to the semi-auto was that the criminal element had already gone there and the police were outgunned. Officers were facing criminals armed with high-capacity weapons" makes any difference.

The cops cannot answer each bullet from a felon with another bullet. They are liable for everything they fire. Now certainly there are reasons why they do need AR's (to me multiple assailants behind cover would be the most pressing reason).

Also wonder why buckshot to the head wouldn't have worked in the N. Hollywood robbery. There are also slugs available now that are decent armor penetrators ( http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/max-barrier-pen.html -- these will penetrate Level IIIA armor at 8 yards, but failed to fully penetrate it at 21 yards. A 584 grain slug is going to really thump you even if it doesn't penetrate)

The source was me...that is my work experience. If you deal or store drugs or if your ethnic culture encourages keeping cash in the home you might be subject to a squad sized home invasion but in terms of numbers...actual occurences when compared with other crimes involving. Armed suspects...not even close. I am sorry to hear about your experience but once in a while commercial aircraft have a problem but I still fly. The ordinary citizen has an almost zero chance of being mobbed by armed crooks in the home...unless you live in Mexico..I didn't ask.