Stop calling it gouging.

Here's my twist on the issue.

If the price is too steep, you have the option of walking away.

A man can put whatever price he chooses on his property. There's no law that says you or I or anybody is forced to pay his price. That's not gouging. That's free enterprise. If you made and sold pencils...and you could sell every pencil you could produce for a nickel...why would you sell your pencils for 4 cents?

On the other hand...a necessity item that inflates 10 times overnight just because the seller knows that people have to have it in order to survive...is price gouging. Food and heating oil fall under the heading. I can see inflating the price a little on a limited supply to prevent a few people from loading up...but there's a reasonable limit.

On a luxury or non-essential item? That isn't gouging. And, by the way...ammunition price inflation doesn't count as gouging, either. In the present climate...if you've gotten caught with your pants down on your ammunition supply...it's your own fault.

Actually I have all the AR, AK and pistol mags I'll ever need. I'm betting that I probably have more than you do.

Just don't dig on people that try to rationalize what they're doing as okay when it's not.

Ripping a guy off is ripping him off. Call it what you will or throw in some excuses about economics, how you're providing a service or whatever, but you're not going to sell me on your excuses. :Shrug

If some of the people were more honest about what they were doing I'd have more respect for them, but they aren't so I think them hypocrites.

It's more like some of the sellers in this thread are sniveling about ripping somebody off after the fact and trying to pass it off as helping them out. Really pathetic actually.

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Browning, you're exactly right! The only moral and ethical thing for him to do would be to tell those buyers, "Screw you, I'm keeping it!"

Surely it is MUCH more ethical to refuse to sell something to someone than to sell it to them at some price they are WILLING to pay?

Or is the only ethical thing to do to cut away some of your own current, potential, net worth so that the other guy can have a cool new gun cheaper than he otherwise would? (Hopefully that gets the belly laugh it deserves.)

...

These lines of acrimonious griping about the simple function of exchanging goods for valuable consideration are mind-boggling. Aside from the anti-gun legislators the ONLY people any of us have any cause to be mad at are the guys in line next to us who are willing to pay 2x more than we are for the item! Folks who are WILLING TO PAY set the market. Not the manufacturers, not the dealers. The CUSTOMERS. The fundamental misunderstanding that propels folks to blame the SELLERS for what the BUYERS are willing to pay dismays me of our ability to understand any other important concepts of how society naturally works, or should work free of strict government coercion.

When you deal in luxury items like a new or used gun, magazines, nice watches, sports cars, TVs, etc., the only "rule" that has any universal bearing at all is that you get a much value in exchange for that item as you can. There is NO ethical or moral limit on that. If there is someone asking for the opportunity to give you $5,000 for a rifle, you accept the offer! You don't come back with a counter-offer of $1,100 because that's all it's "worth." That behavior would be blindingly self-destructive.

(And for the record, I'm not selling or buying anything and I don't work in retail, wholesale, or manufacturing, so you can take your assumptions about rationalization and stick them back under your hat! )

gouge (gouj)
n.
1. A chisel with a rounded, troughlike blade.
2.
a. A scooping or digging action, as with such a chisel.
b. A groove or hole scooped with or as if with such a chisel.
3. Informal A large amount, as of money, exacted or extorted.
tr.v. gouged, goug·ing, goug·es
1. To cut or scoop out with or as if with a gouge: "He began to gouge a small pattern in the sand with his cane" (Vladimir Nabokov).
2.
a. To force out the eye of (a person) with one's thumb.
b. To thrust one's thumb into the eye of.
3. Informal To extort from.
4. Slang To swindle.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin gubia, variant of gulbia, of Celtic origin.]
gouger n.

Well said, Sam. Bravo!

"Market based pricing." You may have a point. It could also be called ," Capitalism at work." I have.You want it. Pay me.

In this market, the prices are controlled by the buyers.
If an item is priced too high, the buyer will not purchase.
The price will come down to what the general population feels is fair.
Currently, the market feels that $1,500-2,000 is the fair range for your average AR15.
It is like selling a house.
If you bought property in an area for what you consider cheap to fair price... and suddenly the property and houses in that area were in high demand... your $100,000 house would bring an easy $300,000 dollars on the market.
Are you going to sell it for the $100,000 that you bought it for... or are you going to sell it for fair market value?


JIm

BP44 said:

I'm betting you dont

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Whatever. Unless we're going to start measuring ourselves right here and now cataloging every last mag it doesn't really matter.

Like I stated before this is a new style, the new "thing" if you will for a bunch of people. I have been collecting, hoarding, and more importantly shooting for a long time. This type of thing is a cycle and it seems to repeat every decade or so.

It's really a simple thing, if gas went up in price because demand increased........... I think you under stand.

If I was to sell a magazine for $25 and I bought it for $7 15yrs ago would that be considered gouging? (Inflation) Same principal, even more so if you "have enough" and don't have a dog in the fight.

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Still irks me every time it happens.

As far as selling a mag for a mark-up off of what you paid years ago, that's fine. I don't even have an issue with someone who buys mags and then turns around and sells them for a mark-up. Make a small profit off of it, but this price gouging drives prices up and up and up. 6 months from now we might still be feeling the effects of this.

I have alot of ammo, mags and parts, more than enough to last for awhile. However what if it lasts for even longer? What if these are just the prices now thanks to the price gougers? I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 70,000 rds. After that goes if the price is still this high I simply couldn't afford to pay out that much. I'm basically sidelined shooting the few rds I've managed to save up for while shooting becomes the sport of a few super-rich individuals with such an interest.

At that point legislation might as well have gone through for all the good they'd do.

And simply put MR. Browning I don't take kindly to you spouting off, as big as you might be in
Texas words carry weight around my area. I don't really care what "you dig on" as a free market is a free market.

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Care, don't care...I'm not too worried about it.

Don't read my posts then if they bother you so much.

It's the truth. They're price gougers and they're screwing the sport up.

Besides, what does the fact that I live in Texas have to do with anything?

Everyone has something to sell. If you have not retired from the workforce, you have something unique: your time, talent, and energy; i.e., your labor. There's a free market for that as well. If you are whining about price gouging, I invite you to consider:

You have planned your education and career path wisely and developed a job skill that is much sought after, and because of that many employers want to hire you. Now it's time for you to go job shopping. To keep the scenario simple, we'll assume the entire compensation package on offer from all potential employers is in terms of dollars and that besides the money, all other aspects of the jobs (location, policies, work environment, the people you'd be working with, long-term viability of the company and your role in it, etc.) are equally attractive to you, and all are non-negotiable.

- You interview with Employer A, who offers to pay you $100k annually. He gives you 72 hours to consider the offer.
- Later that day you interview with Employer B, who offers you $92K. He gives you a 48-hour window to decide.
- In the afternoon you talk with Employer C, and he is so impressed with you that he offers $212K and needs your decision in 72 hours.
- Over the course of the next couple of days, you have a handful of interviews, and the biggest number you get offered is $140K.

You call Employer C and accept the offer, right?

Does employer C have more money than he knows what to do with? Is he just plain stupid? The simple fact is, you don't care. Employer C is the easy choice because he's willing to give you much more.

But wait! You had the opportunity to sell your labor to a number of other employers, all of whom need to hire a person with the skills you have. But you chose to trade your labor for the most money you could get.

You're a gouger!

Capitalism at work." I have.You want it. Pay me.

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Bingo.

Like that dialogue between Richard Gere and Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman.

"Fifty dollars?? You can't charge fifty dollars for directions!"

"Sure I can, sport. I ain't the one that's lost."

Gouging is a part of the free market system.

When a dealer raises prices on items he has already bought at wholesale to reflect rising prices that is gouging. One post spoke of seeing ammo with three price stickers stacked on ammo boxes. Dealer keeps raising retail price on ammo already in inventory. To me that's gouging for extra profit.

Sam1911 said:

Browning, you're exactly right! The only moral and ethical thing for him to do would be to tell those buyers, "Screw you, I'm keeping it!"

Surely it is MUCH more ethical to refuse to sell something to someone than to sell it to them at some price they are WILLING to pay?

Or is the only ethical thing to do to cut away some of your own current, potential, net worth so that the other guy can have a cool new gun cheaper than he otherwise would? (Hopefully that gets the belly laugh it deserves.)

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Better than being only slightly better than a thief and a con-man.

(And for the record, I'm not selling or buying anything and I don't work in retail, wholesale, or manufacturing, so you can take your assumptions about rationalization and stick them back under your hat! )

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Kind of funny that my assumptions turned out to be true here though huh?

The price gougers just don't like being called that, that's all this thread's about.

Many times you can tell what a person has at stake by what position they take on an issue. We're just seeing that to be true here as well.

It is only gouging if prices are elevated by a seller because there are no other options for the buyer.

When ALL of the sellers raise the prices it is just free market pricing.

A few years back, in Florida, we had hurricane knocked out my power for a week. The fact that Generator prices could go upwards, brought all kinds of people to the state, bringing generators in the back of their pickup trucks. That made product available. Had price controls been in effect, we would not of had that supply. So thank the increase prices for other supply.

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I thought Florida had strict anti-price gouging laws?

You're right though. An increase in prices increases the incentive for sellers to make products available. When you can sell Pmags for $60 rather than $20 people will work harder to make Pmags available for sale.

Better than being only slightly better than a thief and a con-man.

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A thief takes something that doesn't belong to him. A con-man misrepresents himself or an item he is selling.

So you've misapplied two very prejudicial terms there. (Unless you were just going for a couple of random insults and that's all you could think of.)

This is the FREE exchange of real items fully disclosed, with no coercion and no other strings attached besides one person being happy to give another person money for a rifle that the other person is happy to give him in return. Lots of happy people there.

The unhappy ones seem to be those folks who don't want to pay as much as the folks who are buying right now, and don't want to be patient like all the other folks who aren't buying right now. But that's life and that will always be.

When you yell "gouging" you really need to admit to yourself that there is a jealousy issue at play in your own mind (whether you're currently looking to buy or not). Others have disposable income and/or rifles that you do not, and that makes you feel bad and badly toward them.

Kind of funny that my assumptions turned out to be true here though huh?

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But they didn't. Your assumptions seem to be heavily biased, but unfounded.

The price gougers just don't like being called that, that's all this thread's about.

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No one likes being called names. I could call you several fairly apt ones based on the things you've posted in this thread and you would almost certainly not like them. They may or may not be true, but the effect would be the same.

Many times you can tell what a person has at stake by what position they take on an issue. We're just seeing that to be true here as well.

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Ok. Then (by your own admission...) what's your stake in this, seeing as you're willing to call folks such ugly and spiteful names as gougers, thieves, and con-men?

No one likes being called names. I could call you several fairly apt ones based on the things you've posted in this thread and you would almost certainly not like them. They may or may not be true, but the effect would be the same.

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More than likely I simply wouldn't care. Have at it. :Shrug

My assumptions did turn out to be true. Might be biased, but true. Two biggest defenders turned out to be selling something.

At any rate I'm done with this thread. No one's going to change their mind.

If someone wants to have high prices then so be it. I just listed some 223 ammo at a fairly high price, just because that was the average I was seeing. However I did say I was open to offers and I didn't "fear monger". That is the difference in my mind, a high price is fine. A high price accompanied by lots of non-sense tryin to get impulse fear buyers is unethical IMHO.

More than likely I simply wouldn't care. Have at it. :Shrug

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Well, that missed the point then. You painted others with a broad brush of ugly, hateful words that were misapplied. Then you claimed that since they didn't want to be called those mis-applied epithets your slurs must be accurate. That's not logical and is a poor way to support your argument.

At any rate I'm done with this thread. No one's going to change their mind.

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Well...we tried. Sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to support your position with more than insults doesn't make your position look stronger.

There is no gouging. It is supply and demand and free market capitalism.
I used to think it was gouging until someone explained it to me.

SaxonPig said:

When a dealer raises prices on items he has already bought at wholesale to reflect rising prices that is gouging. One post spoke of seeing ammo with three price stickers stacked on ammo boxes. Dealer keeps raising retail price on ammo already in inventory. To me that's gouging for extra profit.

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That statement presents several flawed concepts:

1. "...to reflect rising prices means that dealer is simply following the trend, not causing it. If he continues to sell that ammo at a price that does not reflect the market price, he will quickly sell out to the first guy who happens upon the deal, or he will have to set a limit, which seems also to be frowned upon by the guys who scream "gouger!"

2. "...ammo with three price stickers stacked on ammo boxes" would be ok with you if you could see that the stickers below were higher numbers, right? You'd be ok if that dealer was adjusting prices down, right?

3. "Dealer keeps raising retail price on ammo already in inventory." Ever ask for a raise from your employer? Ever turn one down? But wait, you're already in his labor inventory. Gouger!

Gouging implies something nefarious. That's why market pricers don't like being accused of it. In truth, it's a made-up term, made up by disgruntled people on the losing end of the free market.

Question: What do a 'gouger' and a 'hoarder' have in common?

Answer: They are names that those who got caught unprepared call those who did not.

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We have a winner!

Someone mentioned "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell. I cannot recommend that book highly enough, and it's painfully apparent that a lot of people need to read it here.

Sam1911 said:

Well...we tried. Sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to support your position with more than insults doesn't make your position look stronger.

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That implies that you had something correct to tell me and that I wouldn't listen to reason. The fact is that you don't have anything to tell me.

I have no issue with people making a fair profit off of their products and if it'll cost them more to replace their stock than it did before then the price must increase for them to get new stock and still make a profit. In that case raising prices is the only way. I get that. What I take issue with is the degree to which sellers have drastically increased their products.

For instance before the panic the average price for an AMD-65 was about $550. AA could have sold it for $750 to $850 and made a tidy profit. That wasn't his answer, he felt it necessary to raise the price to $1,100. There's something wrong with that.

Either you see the ethics and morals involved or you don't.

It's not my job to teach you right from wrong, that was your parents job. Whatever sense of right or wrong you have as an adult is whatever you're going to have for the rest of your life.

You and a few others on this thread don't see it that way, so why bother wasting my time pounding out 'War and Peace' when it's just going to be scoffed at?

So I'm not going to.

You can feel that I had no point to begin with and dismiss people who see it the same way that I do as being on the losing side of the free market scale. That's your prerogative. I just don't feel that there's a point to this discussion any longer. It's run it's course and so I'm through.

What makes $850 "fair", but $1100 unfair?

I'm sick and tired of those price gougers trying to sell working machine guns. First, there is a ridiculous amount of paperwork, just to try to wear a buyer down. Second, all the machine guns for sale are old and used!

I heard about CNN guys buying AK rifles for less than $50 in Afghanistan, Columbia, the Congo. American sellers are just trying to rip the consumer off.

Don't tell me about price due to scarcity. I listen to NPR, so I know the US is awash in fully automatic firearms, millions being bought and sold every day without any paperwork at all due to the Gun Show Loophole.