How far would have been far enough in gun technology?

For center fire handguns, I'd be perfectly happy with nothing more than a registered magnum and a 1911.

For long arms, I find it much more difficult to decide. Rifle wise, maybe an M1? STG44? Shotgun, Browning Auto 5?

Cool idea for a thread.

You can look at this a couple of ways and still get to the same point. I would say the early sixties was probably the point where gun technology peaked. It has been all downhill from there. I mean think about it. The M1 garand was being phased out for the M14 in the military. You could buy M1 carbines at hardware stores. Nobody knew what a pre64 meant. It was just a Winchester. The 357 magnum was in full production in the finest revolvers ever made. Colt, Browning, Walther, and S&W were making some of the best semi pistols designs ever. Browning was perfecting the auto 5. Surplus rifles from WW1 and WW2 were all over the place. It must have been paradise. We are far beyond that today. I personally don't care for anything considered a 'platform'.

1) Revolver- S&W Model 27 5" barrel
2) Semi-auto Pistol- Colt Government Model
3) Rifle- Winchester Model 70
4) Shotgun- Ithaca Model 37

How far would have been far enough in gun technology?

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Yesterday

It is easy to get all nolstalgic about older guns and gun designs. Lots of people put more emphasis on the hand work that went into older guns. But when you look at performance, and consider inflation we are living in the golden age of firearms design right now.

Even when you look at older designs a high end 1911 built today is far better than what your grandfather used.

A current production Model 70 is a much better performing rifle than anything made prior to 1964.

The Browning A-5, Remington 870, and 1100 were innovative designs, but there are better options available today.

The old Colt and S&W revolvers were well made and finished, but I'd bet on average a new production gun will be more accurate. I know it is going to benefit from design upgrades that will make them stronger and more durable.

Advances in ammo and optics have completely changed the rules about what is possible today with handguns, rifles and shotguns.

When inflation is factored in it is less expensive today than ever to actually own a quality firearm. And insanely cheap to own a budget gun.

Yes there are some disappointments, some brands, and models have declined in quality, but other brands have risen up to fill the void with quality guns.

Well not to be a fly in the soup but what about the advances in polymers and alloys that allow lightweight concealable pistols and lightweight military applications. Also the aforementioned advances in machining technology that reduces cost and increases accuracy. New is not always better than old but it is necessary.

May we never, EVER, stop improving!

We may avow our love of certain designs and our nostalgia for the good old days, and for the craftsmanship of masters from every era without trying to convince ourselves that humans have reached the pinnacle of advancement at some time in the past, and now face a long slow decline.

In self loading action pistols, the Glock in striker fired, the Browning Hipower in hammers.

In self loading rifles, the AR15, bar none. Aside from someone's emotional assessment, the AR15 is the current pinnacle in rifle design. All the others since have emulated it, or gone out of production.

It's not the gas action entirely, it's the barrel extension - it eliminates the heavy stressed receiver forcing the barrel to be fixed to it, then the bolt. The barrel extension also screws on, making head space adjustment a simple micrometer style twist, not a hydraulic press operation for a skilled gunsmith.

Since the gas action uses the back of the bolt head as a piston, it also counteracts the chamber pressure, reducing the strength requirements and overall bulk.

The loading and firing controls allow ambidextrous use, a reduced set of motions to get a round chambered and back into action, a safer unloading procedure, and less time off target or off the trigger. The choice of caliber and the lack of recoil contribute to it being a highly effective rifle in competition, too. It dominates Service Rifle and Three Gun matches.

Derivatives include the Browning Lever Rifle, and many of the same features are now used in rifles from FN and Beretta. They might change the location of the piston, they still use the controls and barrel extension design. All these can lead to the use of an extruded upper with minimal machining, and a injection molded lower. Both will eventually reduce costs, and both continue the initial designs use of aluminum and composites. Neither rust - which also reduces maintenance.

The design takes down simply, with no special tools, and you can disassemble the gas piston and chamber with little effort. The trigger lock works is easily accessible for cleaning. Small children can do it. Adults can assemble one from parts, on the dining room table, with few special tools. The barrel nut is as simple as tightening a lug nut on a car. All of this from a 55 year old design.

It's such a revolutionary design it's not publicly appreciated, and it has suffered from years of abuse, both by sportsmen and politicians. Goes to being good - if it wasn't, it would be ignored.

The question isn't "when were the best guns made". But rather, at what point did everything become "good enough". I remain convinced that a populus armed with the best weapons available on or before 1945 would be very well armed.

The question isn't "when were the best guns made". But rather, at what point did everything become "good enough". I remain convinced that a populus armed with the best weapons available on or before 1945 would be very well armed.

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We've been outgunned for a long time (well before 1945), but there are more effective weapons than the Garand and M1911A1, even the BAR, M1919 and Thompson. Don't get me wrong, I love my Garand and my 1911s, and certainly wouldn't turn down a BAR or Thompson. But if fighting for my life, I'd much prefer an M4A1, select fire FAL, M240, a modern combat handgun Like the S&W M&P or Glock, etc.

Incidentally, though, I actually do prefer my cut-down Remington M11 to my newer pump guns and even my 11-87 police. It's very handy, very reliable, and I have no real need for 3" magnums.



With regard to quality, that depends on specific examples. IMO, for many guns, the pinnacle was the 80's and 90's, where metallurgical technology was significantly better than decades passed, but you still had skilled craftsman assembling. Today, especially with more traditional firearms, the guns are strong and functional, but the attention to detail and fit & finish are lacking.

Heck, I can have plenty of fun at the range with a flintlock rifle. Plenty of hunters will tell you that you can take anything in North America with the right flintlock. Doesn't mean I would think to restrict myself or others to that level of technology.

How far is far enough? I'm going a step past jmr40 and say tomorrow is enough

There are home gunsmiths all over America trying new designs all the time. People looking to make things lighter, stronger, faster, more accurate, more ergonomic, easier to produce, etc. I want to try out the next great idea, at least until I can lay my hands on a phased plasma rifle in the 40Mw range.

Ar-15, CZ75, Savage 110.

We haven't reached far enough yet, IMO. I'm not a "must always have the latest and greatest" kind of guy, not by a long shot; but I enjoy more recently designed guns more than older designs. Both certainly have their place - even in my safe - but I do use newer designs a lot more.

The technology peaked more than 100 years ago. Since then it's all about refining those designs. Take apart a glock and you can see brownings design, and an AK looks like some other semi-autos from much earlier. Todays guns are based on designs from earlier.

The Savage pistol that almost beat the 1911 in the trials was striker fired, locked using a rotating barrel, and had a modular design where the fire control group came out with a twist, and no pins or screws.

The .32 Savage of the same design had a double stack 10 round mag.

The inner workings of many guns are the same as 100 years ago, the furniture shape and materials have gotten better and lighter.

Browning designed the telescoping bolt, and a locking mechanism that is still widely copied. When other unlocking methods are used in semi-autos, it's usually another 100 year old design.

The technology peaked more than 100 years ago.

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Design principles did, but not the designs themselves, and definitely not the materials and manufacturing processes.

I guarantee if you offered a WWI soldier an M4A1 over his Springfiled rifle, he would not have hesitated. Fast forward to WWII, and I'm quite certain the M240 would have been welcomed over the M1919.

Likewise, guns such as the Kel Tec PF-9 and Kahr P9 are vastly superior carry options to the heavy, small caliber concealable handguns of the day.

I want phasers.

When I can get a pistol the size of a derringer that fires caseless, self-guided, rifle-caliber ammo with no recoil, blast or noise then we might be able to talk about some kind of apex of firearms design. Until then...

in military history, there is a debate over revolution or evolution. the word revolutionary is dangerous since it is so hard define when it started and stopped. i think the same could apply to firearms....it's an evolutionary process. sure, some inventions moved things forward faster than others, but i share the same sentiments of others who only ask that progress never be halted in terms of research and development.

though i do have an eye for tools of the trade from years gone by....

AR-15 16" w/ middy gas system and telescoping stock.
CZ75B
Remington 870 SuperMagnum

While I can certainly respect plenty of those 100+ year old designs, there is something to be said for many post WW2 designs which allowed a higher level of automation, reduced the number of machining steps, and has nearly done away with the need for hand fitting in fire arms. The end result often being a gun that equaled or outdid the classic examples here in performance at a far lower production (and therefore hopefully sales) cost. Just look at what Savage has done with their bolt action guns to see that it is not all about plastics and modular design....

Simple Answer

Lever action rifle
Single action revolver
Double barrel shotgun

Even today I can do everything I need to do with one of them.

Even though, that didn't stop me from owning 80 odd others of almost every age and design.

MachIVshooter said:

We've been outgunned for a long time (well before 1945), but there are more effective weapons than the Garand and M1911A1, even the BAR, M1919 and Thompson. Don't get me wrong, I love my Garand and my 1911s, and certainly wouldn't turn down a BAR or Thompson. But if fighting for my life, I'd much prefer an M4A1, select fire FAL, M240, a modern combat handgun Like the S&W M&P or Glock, etc.

Incidentally, though, I actually do prefer my cut-down Remington M11 to my newer pump guns and even my 11-87 police. It's very handy, very reliable, and I have no real need for 3" magnums.



With regard to quality, that depends on specific examples. IMO, for many guns, the pinnacle was the 80's and 90's, where metallurgical technology was significantly better than decades passed, but you still had skilled craftsman assembling. Today, especially with more traditional firearms, the guns are strong and functional, but the attention to detail and fit & finish are lacking.

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I think we pretty much agree on most of your points. For example, as much as I respect the Auto 5 and plan on purchasing one someday, I've never gotten around to it. Quite frankly, my modern Beretta's and Benelli's are more versatile, faster, generally lighter, more weather resistant, etc.

Additionally, I wasn't meaning to compare a populace armed with mid-century tech vs a government armed with 21 century tech. My point, and I think Cauldron makes it as well, is that had small arms technology had frozen still for everyone around the end of WWII, we'd pretty much have everything we have today in terms of gross functionality.

Anyhow, I thank the OP as its something I've pondered on my daily commute once or twice. I'm glad I'm not alone.

I could easily get buy with designs that existed 100 years ago. my favorites aren't on the list but there is very little that I dislike.

Marlin 30-30 lever action
1911 Pistol
Winchester pump shotgun
Some sort of 22 LR rifle. I just don't know the old models that well.

Solo said:

I want phasers.

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Yeah, wern't we promised them 30 years ago? And that damn metric system too.....