Husband And Wife Arrested After Pulling A Gun In Road Rage Fight

Another example of how restraint and a humble heart (or cool head, at least) can keep you out of a WORLD of trouble.

"Mutual combatants" tend to have a hard time sustaining a self-defense case.

Well usually I would say that someone getting beat up by two people should be justified in pulling a weapon. Disparity of force and all that.
However, in this instance, he is the one who initiated the conflict by approaching their vehicle. Sorry. You can't start a fight and then claim self defense.

TTAG had a good writeup about that incident as well.

No surprise here. The guy broke bad and hit the young driver. Then he proceeded to get his rear kicked. Things went down hill fast when the gun came into play.

"You can't start a fight then claim self defense"

Yes you can. You never lose your right to self defense even in a fight you start.

I start arguing and shove a guy, he pulls out a knife and lunges at me, I shoot him. Justified shooting. You don't have to lay down your life because you initiated a non life threading fight. The person who elevates to lethal force without cause is the one who is wrong.

non life threading fight

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This isn't bottom hall in 8th grade. When men fight, it may end with one of them dead.

And to add, it can be justifiable to shoot an unarmed attacker in a fist fight if the attacker pins you to the ground and starts smashing your head or kicking you in the head etc. In some situations, fists and feet become lethal weapons and you are justified in using lethal force to protect yourself.

Your best option though is to de-escalate and walk away from the conflict.

I understand when we say that the man was a mutual combatant or even started the fight and therefore cannot claim using a weapon in self defense. But what if the young fighters had started smashing his head multiple times with a tire iron which could prove fatal? Can the legality change based on how the fight progresses?

Either way you won't catch me in this situation. Last summer in the Kroger parking lot 4 young punks in their car yelled at me while I was in my car. We were driver side to driver side going in opposite directions right past the front entrance of the store. Windows down as the weather was nice and they called me a mother f redneck (I guess because I have a pickup?). I had just come back from the range and had my pistol on the passenger seat. They didn't know who they were dealing with which made the comment pretty stupid on their part, but the only reaction they got from me was a smile and a wave

Phillip, I STRONGLY suggest you consult an attorney in this matter. If you are the aggressor, it is very difficult to say that your self-defense was justified. Even when you WITHDRAW, it is a tough sell.

Probably wish they had a do over on that situation. It was incredibly stupid all around.

phillipduran said:

"You can't start a fight then claim self defense"

Yes you can. You never lose your right to self defense even in a fight you start.

I start arguing and shove a guy, he pulls out a knife and lunges at me, I shoot him. Justified shooting. You don't have to lay down your life because you initiated a non life threading fight. The person who elevates to lethal force without cause is the one who is wrong.

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Good luck with that in court.

You start arguing. You shove the guy. That is assault and you are the aggressor. He defends himself. You do not have the right to "defend" yourself against his defense against your initial assault.

I think, would have to check, that TX has some odd statute that essentially says if one party of mutual combat trys to cease fighting and the other then presents a potentially deadly threat lethal force is justified. I'm not positive about this and didn't make a point of remembering the statute as i would not enter in mutual combat in the first place.

non life threading fight
This isn't bottom hall in 8th grade. When men fight, it may end with one of them dead

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I agree. I can easily see a normal fistfight leading to a knockout which is then followed by lethal force against you while you are passed out. Should you be able to use firearms to defend yourself against an attacker when you think you may suffer additional harm? That's a tough one. I'm not entirely sure.

phillipduran said:

I start arguing and shove a guy, he pulls out a knife and lunges at me, I shoot him. Justified shooting. You don't have to lay down your life because you initiated a non life threading fight. The person who elevates to lethal force without cause is the one who is wrong.

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Enjoy your prison stay.

alsaqr said:

No surprise here. The guy broke bad and hit the young driver. Then he proceeded to get his rear kicked. Things went down hill fast when the gun came into play.

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Pretty much. Nothing much to discuss here. The guy shouldn't have instigated in the first place. Always a foolish decision to exit your vehicle to do something like this.

The second mistake was made by his wife. Not necessarily to have produced a firearm to stop her husband from being pummeled (he was really getting whooped, and to be honest he started it by punching). It's fine that she feared for his life, or whatever. Her mistake was that she GAVE the GUN to her husband, who obviously at that point had proven he was not in the right frame of mind.

Both of these people show they're not capable of being responsible while carrying a firearm. So hopefully they're treated as such by the courts.

Phillip, I STRONGLY suggest you consult an attorney in this matter. If you are the aggressor, it is very difficult to say that your self-defense was justified. Even when you WITHDRAW, it is a tough sell.

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I did. This was from a lawyer in a 2 day CCW course. The example he used was a fist fight, you fall down, guy jumps on you hits you, grabs a nearby brick and lifts it to smash your head. You're justified to shoot to save your life even if you punched or pushed the guy first.

You'll be criminally innocent. Civil court will likely roast your for starting a fight while carrying a gun.

You never lose your right to self defense even in a fight you start.

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You certainly do lose your right to self defense if you start the fight in Arkansas.

2010 Arkansas Code
Title 5 - Criminal Offenses
Subtitle 1 - General Provisions
Chapter 2 - Principles of Criminal Liability
Subchapter 6 - Justification

5-2-606. Use of physical force in defense of a person.

(a)(1) A person is justified in using physical force upon another person to defend himself or herself or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and the person may use a degree of force that he or she reasonably believes to be necessary.

(2) However, the person may not use deadly physical force except as provided in 5-2-607.

(b) A person is not justified in using physical force upon another person if:

(1) With purpose to cause physical injury or death to the other person, the person provokes the use of unlawful physical force by the other person;

(2)(A) The person is the initial aggressor.

Grassman said:

Probably wish they had a do over on that situation. It was incredibly stupid all around.

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Honestly I fail to see how the young driver and his passenger acted stupidly. Some guy comes to your car, starts pounding on you. You just going to sit there? Watch your friend get pounded on? Whether or not they "ran him off the road" is not proven, it is purely an allegation by the obviously aggressive initiator. Even so, let's say they "ran him off the road" - who hasn't missed someone in their blind spot?

The only stupidity i see here is the guy not letting it go - no one hurt, nothing damaged - let it go. Instead he walked up to a truck and started punching a guy. Then his wife produced a gun and gave it to her husband who'd just been knocked silly. That is the only true stupidity I see here.

Should you be able to use firearms to defend yourself against an attacker when you think you may suffer additional harm?

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Let's say I decide I'm going to kick the mess out of someone. That someone starts wearing me out, so I pull a knife. Being outdone, he grabs a 5 ft dogwood. Then I pull a pistol. See where I'm going with this?

This someone does not know my intentions; all he knows is I'm attacking him. I don't want to be standing over a dead guy trying to explain to the cops that I only wanted to break his nose...

Fighting for fun or to make a point was (sometimes) fun in high school, but not the way to act in the real world.

phillipduran said:

"You can't start a fight then claim self defense"

Yes you can. You never lose your right to self defense even in a fight you start.

I start arguing and shove a guy, he pulls out a knife and lunges at me, I shoot him. Justified shooting. You don't have to lay down your life because you initiated a non life threading fight. The person who elevates to lethal force without cause is the one who is wrong.

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Using the same justification the guy with the knife could spill your guts on the grounds and claim the same thing. That he was justified using deadly force because he was in fear for his life. The minute you shoved him, it became an assault. If there are witnesses to the fact you initiated the argument and then were the one to escalate it to a physical confrontation, you will have a tough time claiming self defense. While one can initiate a verbal confrontation and then defend themselves with deadly force when confronted physically(in some states), you initiate the physical violence and you are no longer the victim. I believe this is the argument for the prosecution in the Trevor Martin case and Zimmerman's fate depends on who the jury decides initiated the violence.

You start arguing. You shove the guy. That is assault and you are the aggressor. He defends himself. You do not have the right to "defend" yourself against his defense against your initial assault.

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You have the right to defend yourself if someone else elevates the conflict to lethal force.

I am not at all saying I punch him, he punches me, I shoot him.

I'm saying I punch him, he punches me, I punch again, he pulls knife and lunges, I shoot him.

You don't lose your right to defend your life even in a fist fight you start. Check the laws on this. Do some research.

You shouldn't start a fistfight in the first place but if you do, are you saying you lay down your right to protect yourself from being killed? The person who is in the wrong would be the one to first brings lethal force against the other without their life being in danger.

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