223 Sub-sonic rounds

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balderclev

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I'm thinking of making some sub-sonic rounds for a 223 bolt action for beaver hunting. I know this is possible because I accidentally did it in some 308 workups.

Anyone had experience doing this. I've read that some have done this using pistol powders.
 
It would essentially end up being a .22lr. You could use a heavy bullet, 70gr+, and H4895 or Trail Boss, that might end up hitting harder than premium .22lr ammo. But that's what .22mag is for.
 
I've generally found subsonic 223 to be "for entertainment purposes only." The bullets at subsonic velocity, even the so-called explosive ones that I've tried, will not deform at all when shot into a water medium. They will just punch a hole without mushrooming or anything. Many could actually be re-used. 22LR subsonic hollow points will vastly out-perform them on any type of game unless all you're looking for is penetration.

Subsonic 308, on the other hand, can handle bullets heavy enough to carry a good solid punch on target that will serve to overcome the lack of bullet performance. This is why MOST cast bullets are flat nose etc to provide a bit more shock on impact.

I've loaded some 223 subs, but only for demonstrating my suppressor or just to bring a smile to my face. They can be fairly accurate, but DO NOT TEST THEM WITH A SUPPRESSOR IN PLACE until you are 100% sure the bullets are stable WHEN THEY LEAVE THE MUZZLE. Most bullets are designed for much higher velocities, and may wobble/tumble causing baffle strikes that can instantly destroy your high-dollar suppressor, if you have one. I test mine by shooting through cardboard just inches away from the muzzle, another piece about 20 yds out, and maybe at 50 and 100 yds. Usually by the time mine get to 100 yds I can detect a fair amount of wobble in them although they may shoot nice round holes up close.
 
Can't be said enough: "DO NOT TEST THEM WITH A SUPPRESSOR IN PLACE until you are 100% sure the bullets are stable WHEN THEY LEAVE THE MUZZLE."

That said - again - look into loading with Trail Boss.

I've been making subsonic loads for decades, generally using small amounts of fast-burning powders like Bullseye (there's all kinds of literature on the web about this, esp. from Finland and other civilized places where suppressors are cash and carry) but have recently had excellent success using Trail Boss for .308, .300 Win Mag and .338 LM.

Lapua makes specially tested subsonic bullets for .308. You can even fire .223 bullets backwards (good reasons for this), think "light crimp" with cannelure-style bullets. Aquila makes a bullet, "Subsonic Sniper" a 60 grain round for .22 LR you have to get a fast-twist barrel to stabilize (they're available for Ruger 10/22 rifles), a Ciener conversion kit for an AR platform or you can buy a dedicated upper for your AR. Pricey. Having a subsonic round available for your bolt gun adds another tool to your drawer for a number of situations, not the least of which is backyard shooting in suburban environments with little if any risk of over penetration/richochet with the right backdrop.

[For the PC "nazis": just a general discussion, NOT advocating violating any civil/federal rules/regulations/laws. Of COURSE we all want to follow the law to the fullest extent, that's why I'm fully prepared to drop everything for the 4 AM knock on the door and go to the gulags when DHS shows up to confiscate my guns. Well, it will all be legal, right?]

Hodgdon has loading data on a PDF on their website. Velocities are much more consistent with TB powder.

Be careful asking about this subject on the gun boards. All the experts who have no experience or direct knowledge about the subject will plumb the depths of their ignorance for all to see and snicker over.

Oh, and you don't need to shoot out of a short barrel, either.

Have fun, do your homework, ignore the naysayers.
 
I currently use 22lr subsonic rounds for killing beaver that makes very little noise. I don't have a suppressor.

Thought i might get more weight downrange with a 223 or 308 with little or no increase in sound.

Thanks to all for the advice.
 
I currently use 22lr subsonic rounds for killing beaver that makes very little noise. I don't have a suppressor.

Thought i might get more weight downrange with a 223 or 308 with little or no increase in sound.

Thanks to all for the advice.
If you DON'T have a suppressor, then the advice above about loading 223 bullets backwards may give you better impact energy on live targets. I tried this with mixed results out of a 16" bbl AR with 1/9 twist. I did not get reliable enough stabilization of the bullets to ever trust them through a suppressor. You will never know til you try, and most of the enjoyment of this reloading addiction I suffer from is experimentation. A bullet travelling backwards, especially if a flat base, should transfer far more of its energy to the target than if travelling in a normal pointy-end-forward manner. Some good flat-nose cast bullets will fill this niche probably better than the backwards jacketed bullets as well. Use the cardboard test to see if they yaw or tumble, keep them at or below 1050 fps and have fun.

Don't be surprised to see fired primers sticking halfway out of the primer pocket or something. It's NOT over pressure, but UNDER pressure that will cause this, especially if you full-length resize the brass. Not a big deal in this situation.
 
evan price said:
There is published data using titegroup powder on the hodgdon powder website.
I may have to try these out! :D
55 gr Hornady FMJ Hodgdon Titegroup .224" COL 2.200" Max 3.1 gr (1064 fps) 4,000 CUP

55 gr Hornady FMJ Hodgdon Clays .224" COL 2.200" Max 3.2 gr (1060 fps) 3,700 CUP

55 gr Hornady FMJ IMR Trail Boss .224" COL 2.200" Max 4.0 gr (1074 fps)

And these too for .308.
150 gr Nosler BT IMR Trail Boss .308" COL 2.800" Start 10.0 gr (1176 fps) 25,800 PSI - Max 14.0 gr (1417 fps) 27,100 PSI

168 gr Sierra HPBT Hodgdon Titegroup .308" COL 2.800" Max 8.0 gr (1080 fps) 25,000 CUP

168 gr Sierra HPBT Hodgdon Clays .308" COL 2.800" Max 8.0 gr (1060 fps) 26,800 CUP
 
I have messed around extensively loading subsonic .223 ammo. I posted the results on another website and won't bore you with it again. However, I found that you do not want to compress Trail Boss.

I have never tried loading 55 grain bullets. I have always been a big advocate of using heavy bullets in subsonic loads. My logic is that if your maximum velocity is a set number, the only option you have for getting more effective performance is by increasing the weight of the bullet. So, in .223 I was loading 77 grain Sierra MatchKings. I ran out of room in the case with Trail Boss before I got up to just under supersonic velocity. I did manage to cram enough powder in the case to get the velocity I wanted but then had WILD swings in velocity. After that, I found out that compression of Trial Boss is a no-no.

At the time I was doing this, there wasn't much information available for loading subsonic .223, so I was exploring uncharted territory. Today, there is more than adequate information on-line to get you going.

"Be careful asking about this subject on the gun boards. All the experts who have no experience or direct knowledge about the subject will plumb the depths of their ignorance for all to see and snicker over."

So true. I almost didn't even read this thread because I knew that most of the posts wouldn't address the question asked. I wasn't disappointed.
 
I messed with it. Used N310 and trail boss and found, as others have already said, it a lot of work to come up with something pretty much the same as a single shot rifle (as there is no subsonic 223 load that will cycle a semiauto).
 
I have to nit pick, sorry.

If you have a magazine fed, semi-auto rifle and the loads you are shooting don't cycle the action; it becomes a bolt action rifle. Not a single shot rifle. It's still a repeater, just like a Remington 700 is a repeater and not a single shot rifle.


Some people get the whole subsonic .223 thing and some people don't. For some reason, people can grasp the concept of reduced loads in any cartridge, and some people don't.
 
Let me present a CONCEPT here: http://www3.telus.net/gamegetter/operate1.html

The story with that goes: this guy is a Canadian. He hunts sheep in the mountains while living out of a backpack for extended periods. Everything he has, he carries on his back. He wanted to supplement his diet with fresh meat in the form of small game. However, his big game rifle was unsuitable for shooting small game. He couldn't carry a .22 rifle, or a shotgun. And appearently in Canada, he also couldn't carry a handgun. So he developed this cartridge adapter to enable himself to use his big game rifle, to shoot small game animals.

So, lets apply that to what we are talking about here: let's say you are carrying a rifle chambered for .223/5.56 for some reason. Whatever reason. And you also have a need for something smaller. Yeah, you could carry around a golf bag full of rifles so that you could perfectly match the cartridge/rifle to whatever shot you want/need to make. But, that isn't realistic. Instead, you tailor your LOAD to suit the shot/target you are firing at. This is what handloading is all about FWIW. Changing the whole complexion of the rifle you are shooting is as simple as changing magazines. By using different loads, you can simulate having various different guns, only you don't have to carry them.

There are MANY other possible senarios where you might not want to shoot a full powered round: noise, recoil, maximize the effectiveness of a suppressor.......................... Use your imagaination.

FWIW: when I was loading subsonic .223, I was using a 77 grain, Sierra Matchking bullet (as I mentioned previously). I was shooting it at something like 1050 fps. A .22LR shoots a bullet roughly HALF THAT WEIGHT at approx. the same velocity (depending on barrel length, rifle vs. pistol, brand.....). So for those of you comparing subsonic .223 to .22LR arn't grasping the facts.
 
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I've always wanted to try lead balls out of the .223.. I've tried them out of .30+. It's nice to be able to bag small game with a few grams of primers, powder and lead.
 
FWIW: when I was loading subsonic .223, I was using a 77 grain, Sierra Matchking bullet (as I mentioned previously). I was shooting it at something like 1050 fps. A .22LR shoots a bullet roughly HALF THAT WEIGHT at approx. the same velocity (depending on barrel length, rifle vs. pistol, brand.....). So for those of you comparing subsonic .223 to .22LR arn't grasping the facts.

Yes, that is what I was interested in. I already shoot subsonic 22lr but wanted to shoot a much heavier bullet at subsonic speeds. I could buy a 300 Whisper or 300 Blackout but why if I can create a 308 load to accomplish the same thing.
 
So for those of you comparing subsonic .223 to .22LR arn't grasping the facts.
I know what you are saying. The cost of loading up 77 grain or even heavier bullets just didn't work out for me the same way.

In the end some of these 60 grain .22lr rounds.
135961.jpg


And one of these, so they could be used in a .223 barrel made for a lot cheaper although similar results.

http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm
 
I agree.
77 grain Sierra MatchKings are expensive bullets. They cost way more than .22s. However, I wasn't thinking about plinking with them, like I would with a .22LR. They are a specialty item, useful for certain circumstances.


Again, at the risk of repeating myself: you post a picture of a box of .22LR ammo. If you are holding a .223 rifle, or if you own one rifle: a .223, or whatever, you have to now have a second gun to shoot them. Now if you at home and can open up your safe an pull out any gun you want: sure, choose a .22 (or whatever). But TO ME, that isn't what this discussion is about.

I do get the fact that you can buy a .22 conversion for an AR15 and that is a viable option. It does complicate things to a certain extent, but it is an option.
 
This discussion seems to have gotten off the original point. That's OK I suppose but doesn't help my original question.

I am not shooting ar AR but a bolt rifle. I already shoot subsonic Eley hollow points out of a 22lr Ruger for beavers. I now want to shoot a much heavier bullet at subsonic speeds out of a 223 or preferably 308 bolt gun. 22lr has nothing to do with my original question. I know all about that. What I don't know is how to create a load for the other rifles.
 
Well it doesn't help much with heavier but I found with reduced velocity in 223 smaller projectiles(35gn) work better. For some reason they shoot better backwards also.

I've used 147 FMJ in my 30-06 which also shout way better groups backwards also. I went from 3" groups to about 1.75".

I use a lot of powder in the burn rate of Blue Dot. I'll be sad when it is gone. I even use it for my son's & my 243s for deer hunting. It works great with a 65gn V-Max projectile.
 
Again, at the risk of repeating myself: you post a picture of a box of .22LR ammo. If you are holding a .223 rifle, or if you own one rifle: a .223, or whatever, you have to now have a second gun to shoot them.

You missed the link to the chamber adapters below the photo above. http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

The SSS loads above generally don't work worth a flip out of a .22lr as the twist is too slow to stabilize the 60 grain bullet but they work in faster twist .223 barrels with an adapter.
 
Hey bald, if you need projectiles to try, I can give you a dozen Berger 80gr Moly VLD's to experiment with.


I bought a bunch with the intention of having a bolt gun by now, but I don't. Here they sit in shining blackness but can only be chambered by hand in my Mini or AR.


Berger002_zpsee52e734.gif
 
So, in .223 I was loading 77 grain Sierra MatchKings. I ran out of room in the case with Trail Boss before I got up to just under supersonic velocity. I did manage to cram enough powder in the case to get the velocity I wanted but then had WILD swings in velocity. After that, I found out that compression of Trial Boss is a no-no.

444, I'm thinking about trying this with a 223AI. Thinking that maybe the extra case capacity is enough to get there without compressing the TrailBoss.
 
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