gc70
Member
Since the link in the Washington Post article does not work, here is a working link to the 2004 Justice Department Inspector General's NICS Report referred to in the article.
The Chilling Effect of Background Checks on Second Amendment Rights
- Thread starter Dean Weingarten
- Start date
- Status
With name like that you like me should be out the door with gun on you in 10 minutes or less. I do not mean to be crude or to insult you but in USA the rights "of common men" stop when they leave their doorstep and or their property. It helps a little if one drives antique car does not use a mobil phones and pays in cash for whatever he can. Regardless where on this earth they live the wealthy and well-connected have 'freedom force shield' that accompanies them wherever they go.
we are not amused
Member
I have a couple of hours break from the lake, and decided to see what the news on the internet was. I tend to get paranoid about what is going on when all I have is the mainstream news media, I am going to have to get a smart phone with internet one of these days.
First to reply to dogtown tom, and certain other responders.
My friend is legal to own a gun, nothing other than a couple of traffic tickets, a lonnng time ago. He believes and has been told that the problem is that his is a very common name, and at least two other people with the same name, and at least some other similar identifiers, are very bad people. It doesn't help that he moves around quite a bit, and often changes addresses.
His wife started buying the guns after a local gun dealer ( who has known him since childhood) asked, "why don't you just have your wife buy them?"
It would be very hard for somebody to claim "straw purchase" since he is legal to possess guns, and even harder to prove. And to what point? When the idiots can't even enforce clear violations.
Obviously there are anally retentive enough individuals who think this is a great crime, but that is their problem.
Here on the Fourth, we tend to take our liberties for granted. Too busy with family, friends, cookouts, boating or camping at the lake, or in my case all of the above.
Still, there are certain things we ought to think about. On July 2nd, 1776, the Continental Congress voted to declare independence from the British Empire. Two days later, the Declaration of Independence was approved and signed, with the signatories pledging their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. Many of them lost one or more of them, some lost all, including their families.
There are some, my family included, who plan on a public reading of the Declaration on the Fourth. It may be a little late to plan that now, but still, it would be a good thing to find a copy and read it.
"We hold these truths..." Not many people pay much attention any more, not much more is paid to the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.
The Second Amendment is the Government's guarantee that we could Keep and Bear Arms. This was not to be a suggestion, or desire, but a RIGHT! Right up there with the Right to Free Speech, freedom of Religion, the right to petition the government, freedom of association. Then we have the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, guaranteeing more rights.
Over the years, some of these rights have been restricted or denied. The McCain/Fiengold Campaign Finance law comes to mind, as does the 1968 Gun Control Act, and many others. Some have been overturned, often with great controversy as the supporters attempted to silence their political enemies. Others are still the Law of the Land, despite the Constitution.
Thus my assertion, that anyone who is a citizen should own (or at least have access to) a gun. As beatledog7 pointed out, why are we releasing dangerous people back into society?
We can deprive individuals their Civil Rights as punishment for a crime, but we can not deprive them of their Civil Rights after they have served their sentence. We don't deprive them of their freedom of Speech, Religion, Association, Due Process, the Fifth, or any other Civil Right guaranteed to them under the Bill of Rights. Except the Second. We even deny them for minor misdemeanors Hence the nonsense over the NICS checks. Is the Right to Keep and Bears Arms a Right or a privilege to be granted or denied at the whim of our Progressive Masters?
Something to think about of the July Fourth Holidays. Just what does freedom mean, and are we really serious about it.
First to reply to dogtown tom, and certain other responders.
My friend is legal to own a gun, nothing other than a couple of traffic tickets, a lonnng time ago. He believes and has been told that the problem is that his is a very common name, and at least two other people with the same name, and at least some other similar identifiers, are very bad people. It doesn't help that he moves around quite a bit, and often changes addresses.
His wife started buying the guns after a local gun dealer ( who has known him since childhood) asked, "why don't you just have your wife buy them?"
It would be very hard for somebody to claim "straw purchase" since he is legal to possess guns, and even harder to prove. And to what point? When the idiots can't even enforce clear violations.
Obviously there are anally retentive enough individuals who think this is a great crime, but that is their problem.
Here on the Fourth, we tend to take our liberties for granted. Too busy with family, friends, cookouts, boating or camping at the lake, or in my case all of the above.
Still, there are certain things we ought to think about. On July 2nd, 1776, the Continental Congress voted to declare independence from the British Empire. Two days later, the Declaration of Independence was approved and signed, with the signatories pledging their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. Many of them lost one or more of them, some lost all, including their families.
There are some, my family included, who plan on a public reading of the Declaration on the Fourth. It may be a little late to plan that now, but still, it would be a good thing to find a copy and read it.
"We hold these truths..." Not many people pay much attention any more, not much more is paid to the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.
The Second Amendment is the Government's guarantee that we could Keep and Bear Arms. This was not to be a suggestion, or desire, but a RIGHT! Right up there with the Right to Free Speech, freedom of Religion, the right to petition the government, freedom of association. Then we have the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, guaranteeing more rights.
Over the years, some of these rights have been restricted or denied. The McCain/Fiengold Campaign Finance law comes to mind, as does the 1968 Gun Control Act, and many others. Some have been overturned, often with great controversy as the supporters attempted to silence their political enemies. Others are still the Law of the Land, despite the Constitution.
Thus my assertion, that anyone who is a citizen should own (or at least have access to) a gun. As beatledog7 pointed out, why are we releasing dangerous people back into society?
We can deprive individuals their Civil Rights as punishment for a crime, but we can not deprive them of their Civil Rights after they have served their sentence. We don't deprive them of their freedom of Speech, Religion, Association, Due Process, the Fifth, or any other Civil Right guaranteed to them under the Bill of Rights. Except the Second. We even deny them for minor misdemeanors Hence the nonsense over the NICS checks. Is the Right to Keep and Bears Arms a Right or a privilege to be granted or denied at the whim of our Progressive Masters?
Something to think about of the July Fourth Holidays. Just what does freedom mean, and are we really serious about it.
dogtown tom
Member
Unless it's the FBI NICS telling him that, it's just a WAG by whoever said it. NICS will not tell ANYONE the reason for a delay or denial over the phone. They will only tell DENIED buyers the reason after they submit the request in writing.
NICS has a method that allows them to keep a buyers file open permanantly.........the VAF or Voluntary Appeal File. He can also submit information that would get him a Unique Personal Identification Number.
Current residence address has no bearing on a NICS check as the FBI doesn't get told the street address or city..........only the state.
That dealer is/was an idiot. Not only is he suborning perjury, but as he knows the husband is the actual buyer he is facilitating a straw purchase......both would be Federal crimes. The dealer would face loss of his FFL at a minimum.
I find it disturbing that a dealer would risk loss of his license (at a minimum) over the sale of a firearm. Again the dealer is an idiot.
It is ABSOLUTELY a straw purchase. It makes no difference if the husband is "legal to possess guns".........ANYTIME someone attempts to acquire a firearm from a licensed dealer and they are not the actual buyer/transferee they are in violation of Federal law. If the dealer is aware that it is a straw sale he is in violation as well. When the wife signs her name to that 4473 she certifies under penalty of law that all answers were true, correct and complete.
Did either you, the husband or his wife actually READ the Form 4473? If you had, it pretty clear that ONLY the actual buyer/transferee can complete and sign the form.
I have even less doubt now (than from your first post) that your "friend" and his wife are violating Federal law. Not to mention the idiot dealer.
Sorry, but committing a crime and serving your sentence do not let one start life anew. Don't like dem rules? Too bad, don't do the crime if you can't do the time and deal with the lifelong consequences.
Last edited:
we are not amused
Member
dogtown tom:
If you are so damn smart, why don't you explain why he can get denied, and on challenge get the clearance? More than once! And then you can explain how to fix the problem so it doesn't happen again, not to my friend, but to the FBI. Lots of luck with that one!
Obviously the NICS checking system has a few bugs.
As for the rest of your argumentive posting....
I will admit that have little use for overly anally retentive people.
If you are so damn smart, why don't you explain why he can get denied, and on challenge get the clearance? More than once! And then you can explain how to fix the problem so it doesn't happen again, not to my friend, but to the FBI. Lots of luck with that one!
Obviously the NICS checking system has a few bugs.
As for the rest of your argumentive posting....
I will admit that have little use for overly anally retentive people.
dogtown tom
Member
As explained earlier, only the FBI NICS can tell him "why", and did so during the appeal process.
And AGAIN, he can avoid delays and denials by opening a Voluntary Appeal File and applying for a UPIN#. If your friend read any of the material sent to him by the FBI or bothered to read their website information he would know this.
once again, open a Voluntary Appeal File and apply for a UPIN#....it ain't rocket science.
I deal with FBI NICS six days a week and strongly disagree.
And I have little use for liars and felons. As a licensed gun dealer it behooves me to be "anal retentitive". Unlike your friends dealer, I follow Federal law. While you seem to think I'm anal retentive, I tend to believe it's following the law. 99% of other dealers feel the same way.
Bottom line........your friend, his wife and that dealer are committing serious violations of Federal law. While you think I'm being "argumentative" you haven't offered up a shred of evidence that says what they are doing is legal. On the contrary, you keep posting additional information that digs the hole deeper.
If you are so sure that nothing is wrong...........name the dealer.
Does this friend supply his social security number when filling out a 4473? That would be the easiest way to limit confusion if one has a common name.
We deny criminals all types of rights after they are released, not just gun ownership. Bans on felons voting and sex offender registries are two examples that come to mind.
what if you are a "criminal" for downloading music arguing with your wife etc . what it takes to be a "criminal" is being expanded all the time to encompass everybody like Ayn Rand predicted. they will throw the law abiding gun owner right back in your face
AethelstanAegen
Member
Absolutely 100% concur. It's a common misconception that a straw purchase is only when the recipient can't pass a background in check, in reality, whether or not you can legally own a gun does not factor into the matter. That gun store owner could face stiff legal ramifications for allowing that to happen and he put your friend and his wife in a position where they were repeatedly breaking the law. That is just ridiculously reckless and stupid.
Especially when there are several perfectly easy ways to get around the problem:
Both of those are excellent suggestions and what most people do in your friend's situation. Any FFL who isn't an idiot should have known that and told your friend and not suggested violating laws as an unnecessary work around.
The system works fine if you have an FFL who's not pants-on-head-stupid and could help you with the UPIN system.
It pays to be a little diligent when you're dealing with firearms laws so you can ensure you don't accidentally commit a firearms-related felony and lose your 2A rights forever. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
we are not amused
Member
I have no idea whether he does or not, I don't go with him when he buys a gun. I would assume so. He doesn't understand it either. He knows one of the people with the same name is convicted drug dealer, because the cops once came knocking on his door wanting to talk to him. Obviously, there are problems with the NICS system, perhaps dogtown tom can correct it for them.
Actually, we do not have a Civil Right to vote. Also, the professional licenses that are denied felons are not guaranteed by the Constitution, as they are issued by the State. And as I pointed out, one does not give up the other enumerated Rights, such as the Fifth, the Fourth, or any of the First. Further more, we also deny the 2nd Amendment rights to people who are merely convicted of misdemeanors, not just felonies.
Iramo94
Member
A bit off topic here, sorry, but would this be grounds to incorporate the ninth amendment? Just because our right to vote isn't enumerated doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
dogtown tom
Member
I don't know if you are obtuse or just attempting to be cute. In either event you continue to believe that there is a problem with NICS........I don't. In your latest post you state your friend "knows one of the people with the same name is convicted drug dealer".........WELL DUH. Thats a perfect example of NICS working EXACTLY AS IT SHOULD.
Further, you postulate that I could correct the problem...........I have an idea thats been mentioned a couple of times..........OPEN A VAF and GET A UPIN.
- Status
Similar threads
