45 acp for conversion

Jacketed bullets are considerably harder to push down the barrel than lead bullets which results in higher pressures. The company is probably covering their butt because 1.- they have no idea what the condition of your gun is, 2.- black powder guns were never designed to handle modern load pressures in the first place, and 3.- the rifling was designed for lead balls not hard jackets.
Cast lead bullets would probably work well in these guns with a conversion cylinder.

http://cheycast.com/

Lead 45 ACP bullet source

The solution is reloading with lead bullets. Shooting reloads allows you to shoot 2 to 3 times as much ammo for the same money.

First, Kirst conversion cylinders are meant "For Black Powder or equivalent loads only, which includes the smokeless, light target loads used in Cowboy Action Shooting." So you can't use factory or military FMJ .45 ACP rounds in them. Second, unless things have changed, you are only supposed to use lead bullets vs. the metal targets used in CAS matches.

So you should be using ammunition loaded with either black powder, OR loaded with smokeless powder = to the pressure of the same cartridge loaded with black powder. Kirst assumes that the reason you are buying the conversion cylinder is to use it for CAS shooting, so lead bullets. Hence the warning.

LD

The barrels are too soft for jackets.



45 Dragoon

Jacketed bullets are considerably harder to push down the barrel than lead bullets which results in higher pressures.

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Peak chamber pressure is long over with once the bullet reaches the bore.

The barrels are too soft for jackets.

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Yep! Percussion guns aren't made of the same steels as cartridge guns.

Only FMJ I've ever fired in .45ACP was won at a shoot. Oh, I handload a 200 grain speer JHP for carry, have fired that. But, a 200 grain Lee TL SWC has gone down the barrel most of my practice sessions. If you don't cast and don't handload, just buy it in .45 Colt and shoot cowboy loads. I'm going to get a .45ACP cylinder for my '58 eventually.

You can always load a .454" RB over some bullseye.

Howdy

Usta be that the advantage to owning a revolver like a Ruger with two cylinders, 45 Colt and 45 ACP, was that there was lots of relatively inexpensive 45 ACP ammunition on the market, usually less expensive than 45 Colt ammo.

HOWEVER, I am talking about a strong, modern revolver designed to take modern ammunition pressures. SAAMI Max pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi, SAAMI Max pressure for 45 ACP is 21,000 psi.

That is what Kirst is warning you about. His cylinders, and those designed by Kenny Howell and marketed by Taylors are not designed for those pressures. Those guys who tell you they are firing factory FMJ ammo out of a Kirst cylinder are doing it completely against the recommendation of the manufacturer. They are playing with fire.

As stated, 'Ammunition: The Kirst Konverter™ is designed to be used in steel framed revolvers with black powder or equivalent cartridges, ‘Cowboy Loads’, as provided by manufacturers such as: Ten-X, Black Hills, Ultra Max, 3D, PMC, Zero, Winchester, Cabela’s. Cowboy ammunition must, by SASS (Single Action Shooting Society) definition, be loaded with lead bullets with a low-pressure, powder charge that DOES NOT EXCEED 1000 FEET PER SECOND VELOCITY.'

That is a direct quote. Believe it.

Now here is the rub. There are no official SAAMI definitions of Cowboy Loads. No Max pressure guidelines, nothing. It is nice to talk about a max of 1000 fps, but velocity does not define pressure. Pressure defines pressure. A 200 grain bullet moving at 1000 fps is going to have a very different pressure behind it than a 250 grain bullet moving at 1000 fps. And it is pressure that is important, not velocity, in regard to not blowing up guns.

So if you ain't going to be reloading, but are trying to find factory ammo for a Kirst 45 ACP cylinder, you really ought to consider buying one for 45 Colt and buying factory Cowboy loads. Yes they are expensive and hard to find these days, and no their pressure is not well defined, but they will not hurt the gun or the cylinder.

Or what you really ought to start doing is to start reloading.

P.S. I shoot a pair of 1858 Remmies with R&D cylinders. I usually shoot them with 45 Schofield Black Powder loads, and yes, I load them myself.

I know what the instructions and warnings say, but I just KNOW there is also some nitwit out there hankering to shoot .38+P in a .36 conversion or .45 hardball in a .44 no matter what us pantywaists say.
We have all heard how little those warnings and waivers mean to a tough lawyer, especially when the caliber is marked and SAAMI is "official".

Onliest conversion I have is the old Legal Defender in .38 S&W, no +P to choose from there.

One of the shortcomings of commercial ammunition is you have no idea how much pressure it develops. That is because SAAMI has developed pressure standards, and as long as the ammunition is below the Maximum pressure for that caliber, there is no need to publish the pressure on the box. Maximum pressures have been defined as the maximum that is safe to shoot in a modern firearm in good mechanical condition. Somewhere in the records of the ammo company, they know exactly how much pressure is generated, but that is privileged information and it will not be published on the box. The only thing you know when you buy commercial ammunition from a reputable manufacturer is it does not exceed the maximum safe pressure.

Asking if a 45 lrn with a stated velocity is safe to shoot is impossible to say. Pressure is defined by a number of things. Weight of the projectile, burning rate of the specific powder, and the amount of powder. The only way to accurately determine this is to fire the round in a pressure barrel which records the pressure.

If you are asking me, I will tell you again, the manufacturer has stated that his cylinders are safe when fired with Cowboy Loads. As defined, a cowboy load has a lead bullet. This is really not a pressure requirement, it is because only lead bullets are legal to shoot against the steel targets used in cowboy competitions. Jacketed bullets are forbidden.

In short, if it ain't officially stated on the box that it is a Cowboy Load, I would not shoot it in a conversion cylinder.

Period.

So. I went to Midway USA and looked up 45 Colt ammunition. They do not break it down by Cowboy ammo, but if you search for 45 Colt target and match ammo you will find lots of 45 Colt cowboy loads. Lots. I did not find any 45 ACP cowboy loads. Then I went to Ten-X. All they make is Cowboy ammo. They list one 45 ACP cowboy load. Just one. Then I went to Black Hills. They make cowboy ammo. No 45 ACP loads. Ultra Max: two 45 Colt cowboy loads, no 45 ACP loads. Are you starting to get the picture? You could do this too.

The reason for this is very simple. 45 ACP is not a popular cowboy round. 45 Colt is very popular, many Cowboy shooters shoot it, it has the mystique of the Old West all over it. So the ammo companies have filled the demand. 45 ACP is a legal round, believe it or not, but I do not know anybody, nobody, who shoots 45 ACP in cowboy shooting. If I really wanted to, I could load some up, about midway up the pressure charts, and shoot them in the 45 ACP cylinder of my Blackhawk, but frankly, very few Cowboy shooters have a single action revolver that is chambered for 45 ACP. I just happen to have one because 40 years ago that was the only Blackhawk I could find.

Do your self a favor. Forget about 45 ACP for your Remmie. Get a 45 Colt cylinder. Then you can shoot relatively easily available 45 Colt or 45 Schofield cowboy loads in it. Or you could even start to load your own and not have to depend on factory supply.

I am not sure what is the source of your statement that 80 - 90% of 45 acp bullets are jacketed. Lead bullets are commonly used in the 45 acp especially in shooting sports that use steel targets. Lead bullets are also easy to find even in today's "banic". It is as easy as calling your LGS or typing cast lead bullet makers on google.

Well do you think that a 200 grn fmj 45 acp would gennerate enough pressure to dammage the gun?

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Yes. The Remington is quite thin around the frame where the loading ram passes. Look at it, very thin steel there. I'd keep it light. The Howell cylinder I'm looking at is a 5 shooter, says "under 1000 fps" with lead bullets only. My load, 5.0 grains Bullseye, 200 grain lead SWC moves across my chrono out of my 4.5" Ruger KP90DC at about 900 fps. I feel safe with that. What I'll likely do, also, when I get it is what I said earlier, load a .454" round ball over perhaps that same 5.0 grains Bullseye, work up to it anyway and chronograph each step to insure I keep it near the velocity I get with 30 grains Pyrodex. That should give it similar accuracy. I like RB because it doesn't use as much lead, only 140 grains, ergo cheaper and it shoots well in my gun over 30 grains of pyrodex and cornmeal filler.

Again, irregardless of the metal of the barrel, the frame is quite thin in the rammer area. I look at my Blackhawk beside it and just shake my head....but then, the Remmy is my fun gun. I do have it loaded on the headboard of my bed, though, for gobblins, I mean, if I don't have time to get to my shotgun or my carry piece, it's right there by my head.

And would it be safe to fire a 45 lrn that goes 830 fps (not cowboy load)? Im trying to figure out what i can and cant use and thanks for all the responses.

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You won't find a .45ACP "cowboy load". The LRN 230 at 830 fps should be perfectly fine just going by the above thoughts. This is one reason I want a .45ACP instead of .45 Colt. I have some .45 Colts loaded with a 340 grain lead flat nose for my Blackhawk that I would NOT want to find its way into my Remmy. Nothing I load with a lead bullet in .45ACP should hurt the Remmy. Besides, I sold my 1917 Smith some time back and need another .45 ACP revolver.