At what point is enough actually enough in price point?

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SilentStalker

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Ok, I am interested in hearing your ideas on when enough is enough for diminishing returns on a price point of a rifle. I am into long range shooting and have found it to be expensive. I get that you are paying for every little bit of help you can get, from an adjustable stock to a trued barrel, but at what point do you say enough is enough?

This all came about with an argument at work kind of erupting over a guy saying his $400 rifle can do just as well as a $4200 rifle. Lots of guys I shoot with say there is no way, but he has a point. I actually witnessed him shooting his $400 hunting rifle against another co-worker shooting a rifle that was 10X the cost and the results at 100 yds were about a 1/4 of an inch difference. So, in a way I understand his point. That's a lot of cheese for 1/4 of an inch. I could argue that the heavier/better barrel of the expensive rifle will stand up to sustain fire longer and theoretically hold groups better over the cheap rifle round for round under sustained fire, but other than that what is there? I mean sure one might have an adjustable stock for cheek weld and length of pull and all of that but is that really worth the price difference? I don't know. You tell me.

I could also argue that one was a better shooter than the other but not really because one shoots all of the time, the guy with the expensive rig, and the other is just a hunter who rarely shoots. So, I guess my point here is if a guy that never shoots can take a $400 rifle and shoot almost as good as a guy who always shoots with a much more expensive rifle then why pay all of the extra cheese? Are we to assume the differences would have been more noticeable at longer distances? I guess its all in what you are to use it for. When hunting, at least in this area, you would rarely ever shoot at anything beyond 300 yds so for that either rifle would do just fine, I guess. I don't know someone chime in here and give me your thoughts.

And yes, this is somewhat coming up because I want a custom built rifle but am now wondering if all of this money i have in expensive rifles is really worth it.
 
Assuming you can afford it financially, enough becomes enough when spending more for the gun and accouterments doesn't get you discernibly better accuracy in return. If that extra 1/4" means something to you, and you can buy the rifle that allows for it without starving the kids, go for it.

For most of us, spending the extra dough for an Anschutz .22LR nets us nothing we can discern over buying a CZ. The select few are good enough shots to leverage that extra tiny increment of consistency. I'll never be there.
 
and the results at 100 yds were about a 1/4 of an inch difference.

Dosent mean squat, I shoot my $249 Ruger 10/22 at 100 yards just to practice my breathing/trigger squeeze

Compare the two rifles listed in the OP at 1000 yards

This is the correct answer, I would bet that guys $400 rifles groups would open up even at 300-yards,,,
 
Shooting a $4000+ precision rifle at 100 yards is like driving a Ferrari in a hospital zone

My 15 year old son and I practice frequently at our own 375-yard range, He shoots my .223 , and I shoot the .243....

So last Monday when my custom-built 30-06 arrived finally, I could not wait till the weekend to shoot it, so I headed out after work to the range, which was about 87-degrees,dewpoints in the 70's, and is surrounded by small pools of standing floodwater,, (Mosquito haven)
Not wanting to bathe in bugspray, I just went un-armored, and ran out to the 100-yard back and stapled up a target, Instead of making the trek out to the 200-yard mark
I come back to the bench to find my son dancing around trying to keep the skeeters from draining his blood, and he asks me, "Dad , why are we shooting so close ?"
 
Good topic.

First I am going to make the assumption that ego does not matter and you are asking a question purely based on practicality.

For Target shooting, I suppose that 1/4 inch matters. It would most certainly be amplified as you moved further away. But an extra $4000 could be worth a lot in a competitive shoot I suppose. I dont shoot that, but, for a golf reference, my wife will ask me why I could spend 400 on a driver to gain five yards. Whats the difference between hitting it 290 or 285. A lot to a competitive golfer on a championship course.

For hunting, it is totally pointless. Most rifles will be more accurate than you in the field. My current rifle is a Remington 760 in 30-06. I dont think a deer could tell it apart from a Weatherby in 30-06. I will hit the same organs every time. To draw the same golf comparisons, the five extra yards would be a complete waist of money if you just play the muni from the regular tees.

That is not to say, in the end, that expensive guns are not worth it. They most certainly can be. As an investment expensive guns can be quite good. I would spend $4200 on a rifle, but the deer would never see it.
 
I will take the $400 rifle, invest half of the difference, give the other half to the poor after I take my family out to dinner. Everyone is happy.
 
I don't understand. It seems to me that once the bullet leaves the gun, the gun can not influence the bullet. The 1/4 different at 100 yards would open up to 1/2 inch at two hundred yard.

I am missing something? Thanks.
 
I don't understand. It seems to me that once the bullet leaves the gun, the gun can not influence the bullet. The 1/4 different at 100 yards would open up to 1/2 inch at two hundred yard.

I am missing something? Thanks.
Nope. Think of it in MOAs. That 1/4" difference is going to be 2.5" at 1000 yards.

It's kind of like with cars. That last extra 5 HP is where it gets really expensive.
 
You all have valid points and I know about the range not being a real test which is why we are going to go out and have a little challenge because i want to see. The guy thinks his $400 rifle will do just fine out to 1100 yds. We will see. if it does then you really have to question the price of these more expensive rifles.
 
I attended the NRA Metric Smallbore Rifle Matches last week and other matches this week. Those who were placing high in the matches were shooting rifles in the $3 to $4 thousand dollar range. One fellow was shooting a Swiss rifle that he paid $8000 for just the barreled action, then had it custom stocked. These rifles were single shot .22 rimfire BTW.

I would say it depends on what one considers accurate and how bad he wishes to place high in the competitors scoring.
 
12many said:
I don't understand. It seems to me that once the bullet leaves the gun, the gun can not influence the bullet. The 1/4 different at 100 yards would open up to 1/2 inch at two hundred yard.

I am missing something? Thanks.

That is an important point to which many, otherwise intelligent/educated/experienced, people in forums like this are sometimes blind.

Once the projectile leaves the bore its track is ballistic.

How many times have we heard someone claim that Lee-Enfield groups "tighten-up" past 100 yards or "farther down range". In most cases the person making such a statement simply hasn't thought it through, y'know?
 
Quote:
Shooting a $4000+ precision rifle at 100 yards is like driving a Ferrari in a hospital zone. Compare the two rifles listed in the OP at 1000 yards and we'll talk.

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner

Shooting a $4,000 or a $8,000 dollar 22 rimfire at 100 meters or 100 yards in competition against some of the best shooters in the world is NOT like driving a Ferrari in any kind of zone.

Try entering the National Smallbore matches sometime an find otherwise.

YES they fire at 50 meters and 100 meters, then again they also have matches at U.S. measurements 50 yds and 100 yds.

Course I realize this is only with the lowly .22.
 
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SilentStalker, I always compare it to the opportunity cost. Everyone wants an accurate rifle or a fancy car. What I do is compare the cost difference, in this case, between the extra accuracy and the less accuracy. Here it is about $3800. If I put the $3800 into the rifle, I lose out on all the other things that the $3800 could buy, like one or more another nice rifles, a couple pistols, motorcycle, TV, retiring a bit earlier, less interest paid on the mortgage, helping others, or saving it to have less stress about a rainy day.

Then I ask if the extra accuracy of the rifle is worth what it could buy or get for the money.

I try to maximize my fun or value per dollar. I would not get the expensive rifle, but for others that might be just the right way for them to spend their money. I am working to get out of debt so any new money goes to debt reduction. I am self employed and always concerned about the future so this latest economic crash really changed the way I think. I don't feel as secure or confident anymore so I really want to reduce required cash flow. Anyway, going off topic.
 
For most shooters the best "accessory" to improve accuracy is more decent ammunition to practice with. Most people will not be up to the challenge of being a good enough shooter for the extra $$$ to be worth it. Just like most guitarists don't sound any better with a $10,000 guitar vs. a $500 guitar, and practice time and lessons would probably result in better performance with both rifles and guitars.
 
I have a few rifles that cost less than $400-500 that have shot submoa but that doesn't make them the same quality of a $4k rifle.

On the other hand, fishing from a $30,000 boat with a $300 rod and reel and $1000 box full of tackle won't ensure that you catch a better fish than someone else with a cane pole and free grasshoppers out of the field.

Rejoice when you can be thrifty and better the expensive stuff.

All of us have areas where we skimp and others where we want "the best".
 
Jcwit;

Yeah, it kinda is. I've shot competitive NRA smallbore and I've also roadraced motorcycles. Any dentist can supposedly buy the Ferrari and whoopy-ding for him. But the comparitive level isn't in owning the car, it's in getting the Ferrari company to give you a hand built race car & turning you loose with it and no insurance. They won't do that unless as a driver you've proved yourself to them.

Most people, even on this site, don't understand what it takes to shoot at the national level & be competitive for the top honors. It takes a he!!uva lot more than being able to afford an expensive gun. Same thing in high level racing, takes a very great deal more than just being able to stomp on the loud pedal longer than the other guy.

900F
 
All the above has a bearing on it, but in the final go of it, the best most highly skilled shooter in the world isn't going to place high in the Nationals using a Savage target rifle or a 10/22 with a custom barrel and stock, ain't gonna happen. Not gonna happen with a Kimber M82 either.
 
Depends on your goals. Most $400 rifles will do anything most shooters have the skills to do. They do not have the skills to take advantage of the more expensive rifle.

This point was driven home to me 30 years ago when I was discussing tennis rackets with a friend who was a serious player. I asked him why his $250 racket was worth 10X more than the $25 K-Mart racket I had. His reply, "In your hands there is no difference, in my hands I can do things with the $250 racket that I cannot do with the $25 racket". After watching him play I had to agree.

Most casual shooters are thrilled with a 1 MOA rifle. Many serious shooters are looking for a .1 MOA rifle. Casual shooters cannot comprehend such things. They don't make .1 MOA rifles for $400, and most casual shooters couldn't shoot .1" groups if they owned one that would.
 
It takes experience to understand. I can relate with 22 rimfire rifles. There are certainly dimishing returns beyond a certain price point and how important the 1/4" is to the shooter is dependant on their objectives and experience. As mentioned, many shooters would never be able to regularly take advantage of that 1/4" difference, so its importance is relative.

I have said in the hunting threads that if you can hit a 2" circle with your "deer rifle" at 100 yds and that is a typical maximum distance you might shoot at game, you don't need to practice much. But if you are trying to hit a 2" circle at 300 yds or further, it might just take a different rifle and more practice to accomplish this regularly.
 
I can see where a $400 and a $4000 dollar rifle can be the same, sort of. We all know that at a certain point you are paying for the logo. Then you get into the area of hunting rifle vs competition rifle, then you are comparing apples to oranges. To go with the car analogy it would be like comparing a vette to any car in nascar, two different animals. Bottom line is the shooter most firearms are more accurate than the shooter.
 
1 I disagree that most firearms outshoot most shooters. I often take shooters to the range and they are able to hit targets with my rifle that they can't hit with their own.

2. $400 rifles are pot luck. Some will be 1/2 moa and some will be 1 1/2 moa. Seen and owned plenty of both.

3. A group shot from a $400 rifle that is 1moa at 100 yards will not magically open up to 2 moa at 500 yards. However PRACTICALLY the cartridges that $400 rifles are chambered in at the factory suck ballistically compared to the cartridges that some people get on $4000 rifles. (yeah if you payed $4000 for a 308win, and youre not getting free ammo from the gov, I don't know what to tell you). So cartridges don't magically open up either but some are much more forgiving in the wind. So it is entirely possible for you and your buddy to go shoot same size group at 100 and the one with the cheater caliber keeps small groups at distance where the factory gun opens way up.

4. A LOT of the value in a custom rifle is in the stock quality and fit, barrel profile, barrel twist, trigger, smoothness and reliability of the bolt, mag fed bottom metal, improvements in lock time, etc etc. You get things like one-piece bolts that nobody cares about until they're in camp and the bolt is stuck and they try to kick or hammer it open and break the handle off. You get things like integral pic rail and integral lug that don't loosen up after you rebarrel it several times. You get things like a side stop bolt release and better ergonomics. A 60* bolt throw instead of 90*. You get a stiffer action with thicker better steel and smaller feed and ejection ports.
Do these things matter to you? Are they worth $4000? Do you even know which of these features are valuable to you or maybe a distraction?

5. If you want some of the features above it is often more cost effective to buy a custom gun than to pay for the labor to modify a factory gun. Especially if you consider resale value.
 
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