351 Winchester, from what I understand the current Corbon offering with the 110gr JHP is still pretty darn warm. Some folks claimed to have gotten over 1100fps from 4" barrels. On corbon's web site they state that this load was tested in a 1.875" barrel for 1050fps. Speaking of the Hornady 110gr +P Critical Defense has anyone actully run this one over a chronograph from a 4" barrel? I wonder how close this load is to Hornady's claims?
The .38 Special 110gr +P+ "Treasury Load"
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evan price
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I have a box of the Cor-bon dpx 110 grain 38spl+P. I've shot a few in a 4" Model 10 and they did not seem all that much different from my normal carry ammo, which is the Federal Hydra-shok 147-gr +P+ 38 special.
Torian
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They do still make them. I bought a case of 500 a few months ago. It's a classic load, but still a proven performer.Federal used to make a 9mm 115gr +P+ load for the Illinois State Police (9BPLE). I'm not totally sure if Federal still makes it. It was originally sold to LEOs only, but it was available on the civilian market at one point.
armsmaster270 and I worked the same area for sister agencies back in the 80s. Both our agencies issues the 4" S&W M15. When I started, our issue ammo was the 125gr +P JHP. At some point we were issued the 110gr +P+ Treasury Load, piggie-backing on the CHP trials/order.
CHP chose the load to go with their newly issues S&W M68 revolvers. This was a limited run of 6" (before the barrel length was offer on the M66) .38 Spl guns and we were told that the load was selected to give .357Mag performance without carrying a gun marked .357 Magnum.
I seem to remember that the first national street shooting with the load was when someone jumped over the fence at the White House and the Treasury agents shot him...one shot stop.
The load wasn't very suited to general LE issue as it's performance in barriers wasn't optimal. Our department reverted to the 125gr +P loading shortly after, to save wear on the guns and bring qualification scores back up...ir doesn't do much good if you can't hit with what you are carrying
CHP chose the load to go with their newly issues S&W M68 revolvers. This was a limited run of 6" (before the barrel length was offer on the M66) .38 Spl guns and we were told that the load was selected to give .357Mag performance without carrying a gun marked .357 Magnum.
I seem to remember that the first national street shooting with the load was when someone jumped over the fence at the White House and the Treasury agents shot him...one shot stop.
The load wasn't very suited to general LE issue as it's performance in barriers wasn't optimal. Our department reverted to the 125gr +P loading shortly after, to save wear on the guns and bring qualification scores back up...ir doesn't do much good if you can't hit with what you are carrying
Bikewer
Member
I started my career back in '68, and our county deparment didn't exercise much control over what we carried, either ammo or weapons.... As long as it was a Smith or a Colt and you had .38s as your "extra" ammo so you could share...
Anyway I was an avid reloader back then and the Super Vel line had just come out. They were pushing a line of soft-lead, light bullet loads and components and I experimented with them.
I don't recall the specific loads, but you could push those little slugs to considerable velocities out of a 4" .357 and I felt pretty confident carrying them.
Eventually, the county standardized, and started issuing the stainless Smith .357 and a 125 gr. load that the armorer had decided was the best, statistically.
I don't even recall what it was....
Anyway I was an avid reloader back then and the Super Vel line had just come out. They were pushing a line of soft-lead, light bullet loads and components and I experimented with them.
I don't recall the specific loads, but you could push those little slugs to considerable velocities out of a 4" .357 and I felt pretty confident carrying them.
Eventually, the county standardized, and started issuing the stainless Smith .357 and a 125 gr. load that the armorer had decided was the best, statistically.
I don't even recall what it was....
scaatylobo
Member
239 ft lbs energy is pretty pathetic for a +P+ .38 spc is it not? I mean, some standard .380 loads reach that ft lb energy, and some +P .380 eclipse that, and if there was a +P+ .380 it would blow that away, and I was always under the impression that standard for standard the .38 special was superior.
I are be the confused.
I are be the confused.
Some loads just have a stopping power/record all out of proportion to their energy levels/numbers/ratings. The examples, granted for rifles, usually trotted out are the 6.5x55mm (elk/moose), 7x57mm/.276 Rigby (elephant) and the .375 H&H Magnum (everything else)...calibers that have taken game often considered above their power class
That and according to some folks it appears that this ammo don't fare to well when fired from .357 revolvers, it seems to lose velocity when done. Another thing to remember is that in the early years the bugs were still being worked ot of it. Large velocity variations apparently happened from lot to lot, I'm beginning to wonder if that is the reason for erratic performance noted by some.
I still have some 1990s 110 grain +P Cor-Bon HPs that I carry in my .38 snubs, when Icarry a .38 snub.\
I originally carried 125 +P Silvertips, but they became hard to find, and Cor-Bon was everywhere and had a good reputation
I need to get some Buffalo Bore 158 +P LSWCHPs.
I think they'd be perfect for my Speed Six .38 2.75".
My buddy's dad was a captain with a local PD and had a Beretta 92 and a Smith airweight J frame issued to him.
The dept had just switched over to the Beretta at the time.
His issued ammo for the airweight Smith was the Treasury load.
I could have sworn he said his J frame had an aluminum cylinder.
He'd stated that he hoped he never had to use his J frame.
He said that load would probably "blow it up in his face".
I originally carried 125 +P Silvertips, but they became hard to find, and Cor-Bon was everywhere and had a good reputation
I need to get some Buffalo Bore 158 +P LSWCHPs.
I think they'd be perfect for my Speed Six .38 2.75".
My buddy's dad was a captain with a local PD and had a Beretta 92 and a Smith airweight J frame issued to him.
The dept had just switched over to the Beretta at the time.
His issued ammo for the airweight Smith was the Treasury load.
I could have sworn he said his J frame had an aluminum cylinder.
He'd stated that he hoped he never had to use his J frame.
He said that load would probably "blow it up in his face".
charlie fox
Member
I was issued this round right out of the Academy. The department was going through a "lighter/faster" phase. As I recall it was downright tame our of our 6" barrels (Smiths and Colts). After about a year we went to a 95 gr +P which was even easier to shoot. They finally settled back on the 110 gr. load and stuck with it until they switched to 9mm.
Deer_Freak
Member.
I have never fired a 38 spl 110 gr cartridge. But I have fired a 357 mag 110 gr HP cartridge manufactured by Winchester . They were disappointing to say the least. I found them to be erratic. Ballistic drift was an issue. At 15 yards I would shoot 2 shots dead center of a 6" target. The next shot was 3" over the target. After 24 shots I couldn't wait to get a box of Fiocchi 125 gr ammo.
From reading some of the posts it seems as though this load was pretty popular, hanging until the switch to semi autos. I was thiking it was abandoned for whatever brand of the FBI load, seems as though I've been sorely mistaken. I've never shot any of this ammo either but I did shoot a few rounds of Super-Vel 110gr ammo in my late fathers S&W M60 no dash. I still have that box with 10 rounds left the rest he shot. It's the good stuff too, the version made in Shelbyville. Nothing happened to the M60 btw it's still going strong.
scaatylobo
Member
O.T. but fyi
THE hottest round I ever fired in a revolver,as far as flash and bang - is the S&W 90 grain .357 magnum.
I just came across another box of them and they are HOT,much hotter than the 110 grain .357's that I often shoot [ they are a freebie from a fellow LEO ].
But after firing a few boxes of the +P+ loads,I would NEVER shoot them from anything less than a SOLID 'K' frame at the very least.
I did shoot them from my issued S&W model 10 HB,was allowed to keep her when she was retired.
THE hottest round I ever fired in a revolver,as far as flash and bang - is the S&W 90 grain .357 magnum.
I just came across another box of them and they are HOT,much hotter than the 110 grain .357's that I often shoot [ they are a freebie from a fellow LEO ].
But after firing a few boxes of the +P+ loads,I would NEVER shoot them from anything less than a SOLID 'K' frame at the very least.
I did shoot them from my issued S&W model 10 HB,was allowed to keep her when she was retired.
In the early 1980s I had occasion to talk to a Border Patrol Cpt. who was carrying that load at the time. He was quite envious of the Colt Government Model my department allowed and we spent some time discussing LEO shootings, guns and ammo. He was not impressed by the performance of the 110g +P+ and said he would rather carry most anything else.
I have no personal experience with those 38 Specials so just passing on what one Federal Officer told me.
Dave
I have no personal experience with those 38 Specials so just passing on what one Federal Officer told me.
Dave
mrbig381
Member
Fed buddy gave me 95 grain+p Winchester silvertips that I use in my Colt Cobra. I don't feed it a steady diet of the +p. Anyone have any info on this particular loading?
fastbolt
Member
Interesting timing for this subject ...
I was just reorganizing some of my older ammo and came across 3 boxes of the Winchester .38 Spl 110gr +P+ load I'd forgotten I had left over.
Some years ago I had access to several thousand rounds of it that had been rotated out-of-service. I used a fair amount of it in an early 640 that had the "+P+" marking on the frame (inside the cylinder window). Although the 640 was steel, and therefore had some heft to it (compared to an Airweight), shooting the +P+ loads through it subsequently made shooting +P in my 642-1 seem rather pleasant.
I was just reorganizing some of my older ammo and came across 3 boxes of the Winchester .38 Spl 110gr +P+ load I'd forgotten I had left over.
Some years ago I had access to several thousand rounds of it that had been rotated out-of-service. I used a fair amount of it in an early 640 that had the "+P+" marking on the frame (inside the cylinder window). Although the 640 was steel, and therefore had some heft to it (compared to an Airweight), shooting the +P+ loads through it subsequently made shooting +P in my 642-1 seem rather pleasant.
Why tear your gun apart?
It makes no sense to ruin a lightweight .38 Special revolver by shooting super hot ammo through it! Why not just buy a .357 Magnum and shoot .357's? Yes a self defense gun should shoot powerfull ammo but what if the moment your gun is going to fail is the moment you need it? Ok you got away firing the hot stuff for a while and now when it counts, the frame splits!
Real comforting eh?
A .38 Special throws a decent weight bullet at reasonable velocitys, it's what the gun was designed to do. It's a pretty reliable fightstopper, recorded in accounta to have done just what was needed.
I have a Model 10 and a Model 36 which will do all they are designed to do with either Remington 258 gr bullets or with Horniday XTP bullets both well within way safe pressures.exceeding these by even a marginal percent could damage the revolvers and may not net .357-like preformance hoped for with these +P + loads promise. WHY try it? why wreck tour gun?
Don't be cheap and if you doubt the power of your revolver, go and buy a .357 Magmum revolver!
With pratice, the accurate ,38 Special revolver can deliver fight stopping well aimed fire why not become proficent with the use of the gun and train yurself to shoot well rather than depend on untrained fire or wonderbullets to do it for you?
It makes mo sense to overstress the metal!
JMHO
BPDave
It makes no sense to ruin a lightweight .38 Special revolver by shooting super hot ammo through it! Why not just buy a .357 Magnum and shoot .357's? Yes a self defense gun should shoot powerfull ammo but what if the moment your gun is going to fail is the moment you need it? Ok you got away firing the hot stuff for a while and now when it counts, the frame splits!
Real comforting eh?
A .38 Special throws a decent weight bullet at reasonable velocitys, it's what the gun was designed to do. It's a pretty reliable fightstopper, recorded in accounta to have done just what was needed.
I have a Model 10 and a Model 36 which will do all they are designed to do with either Remington 258 gr bullets or with Horniday XTP bullets both well within way safe pressures.exceeding these by even a marginal percent could damage the revolvers and may not net .357-like preformance hoped for with these +P + loads promise. WHY try it? why wreck tour gun?
Don't be cheap and if you doubt the power of your revolver, go and buy a .357 Magmum revolver!
With pratice, the accurate ,38 Special revolver can deliver fight stopping well aimed fire why not become proficent with the use of the gun and train yurself to shoot well rather than depend on untrained fire or wonderbullets to do it for you?
It makes mo sense to overstress the metal!
JMHO
BPDave
ZVP, you need to realize that this ammunition was brought about during a time when things were very political for a lot of LEO agencies. The word magnum where police were concerned during that time frame wasn't very well liked by more than a few. Couple that I'm sure with tight budgets a large city PD couldn't just drop the issue .38's and buy brand new .357 revolvers. So the +P+ ammo was a way for the PD's to up the performance of the .38 SPL at that time.
Also realize that other than the 158gr SWCHP (+P) load the "Treasury Load" was really all that there was other than the worthless 158gr LRN. As far as using this ammo goes, well that is up to the individual user. Today we have far better choices in ammunition than what was available back then. Today we have bullets that are actually tailored to a given cartridges performance window e.g. Speer .38 SPL 135gr (+P) short barrel ammo. Back then that wasn't the case. Whatever bullet that was made for the .357 magnum was also used in the .38 SPL.
Back then the only way to get a JHP bullet to expand from a .38 SPL was to go light and get higher velocity. Hence the 110gr +P+ loading. Also since this was a +P+ loading which there is no SAAMI standard for, this ammo was limited for sale to only LEO. Your absolutely right that today there really is no reason to use this ammo as there is a lot of good stuff out there. But that just wasn't the case back then, so it is what it is.
Also realize that other than the 158gr SWCHP (+P) load the "Treasury Load" was really all that there was other than the worthless 158gr LRN. As far as using this ammo goes, well that is up to the individual user. Today we have far better choices in ammunition than what was available back then. Today we have bullets that are actually tailored to a given cartridges performance window e.g. Speer .38 SPL 135gr (+P) short barrel ammo. Back then that wasn't the case. Whatever bullet that was made for the .357 magnum was also used in the .38 SPL.
Back then the only way to get a JHP bullet to expand from a .38 SPL was to go light and get higher velocity. Hence the 110gr +P+ loading. Also since this was a +P+ loading which there is no SAAMI standard for, this ammo was limited for sale to only LEO. Your absolutely right that today there really is no reason to use this ammo as there is a lot of good stuff out there. But that just wasn't the case back then, so it is what it is.
shep854
Member
This was also the day of ".357s will beat your S&W K-frames to death", so the challenge was to 'split the baby' and have .357 performance with .38Spl pressures.
As with all such compromises, there were issues at both ends...
What I had was given to me by a distributor who happened to be a friend, and I shot it from a Ruger SP-101 .357.
As with all such compromises, there were issues at both ends...
What I had was given to me by a distributor who happened to be a friend, and I shot it from a Ruger SP-101 .357.
Gordon
Member
" you need to realize that this ammunition was brought about during a time when things were very political for a lot of LEO agencies"
"Also realize that other than the 158gr SWCHP (+P) load the "Treasury Load" was really all that there was other than the worthless 158gr LRN"
First statement true , second not so much. There were no +p loads other than the .38/44 for N frames and New Service guns, but they had metal point bullets mostly. You had Supervel HP ammo which was very hot, but mostly 110 grain HP which is where they got the "Treasury Load" idea.
In the bad old days when we took down fleeing felons the LRN made some sense, many swore by the blunt 200 grain version. The idea of instant incapacitation was solve by shooting until the guy went down and some lead in a fleeing felon solved the criminal on the street issue handily because they either sought hospitalization or bled out.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...8977-38-44-ammo-too-shoot-not-shoot-pics.html
"Also realize that other than the 158gr SWCHP (+P) load the "Treasury Load" was really all that there was other than the worthless 158gr LRN"
First statement true , second not so much. There were no +p loads other than the .38/44 for N frames and New Service guns, but they had metal point bullets mostly. You had Supervel HP ammo which was very hot, but mostly 110 grain HP which is where they got the "Treasury Load" idea.
In the bad old days when we took down fleeing felons the LRN made some sense, many swore by the blunt 200 grain version. The idea of instant incapacitation was solve by shooting until the guy went down and some lead in a fleeing felon solved the criminal on the street issue handily because they either sought hospitalization or bled out.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...8977-38-44-ammo-too-shoot-not-shoot-pics.html
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Gordon, I'm not trying to pick nits here but I'm firly certain that .38/44,.38 Hi-Speed,.38 Highway Master ammunition production had aready ceased by the late 1970's. If one was lucky enough to find a box of it .38/44 ammo was still loaded with 158gr LRN or a 110gr Metal Point ammo. I do know that the N frame S&W heavy Duty & Outdoorsman (Model numbers were later 20 & 23) were out of production for a good time by this point. I do recall reading a article written by Allen Jones a while back. For those that don't know Mr. Jones worked for the Dallas PD, and later was the editor for the Speer #14 reloading manual as well as cheif ballistician.
Anyway SAAMI authorized the (+P) marking back in 1974 time frame IIRC. Winchester announced it's 158gr (+P) LSWCHP loading at about that time. So what relevance does this have your asking?... Well Mr. Jones along with some others were responsible (as per the article) testing and selecting the ammo that was to be Dallas PD's new issue ammo, replacing the 158gr LRN. After the dust had settled they winner was the Winchester 158gr (+P) SWCHP. So (+P) ammo was certainly available back then. Yes Super Vel was out there too, however bullet expansion was not always positive.
Here is the article I was reffering to http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_crimelabtests_200807/
Anyway SAAMI authorized the (+P) marking back in 1974 time frame IIRC. Winchester announced it's 158gr (+P) LSWCHP loading at about that time. So what relevance does this have your asking?... Well Mr. Jones along with some others were responsible (as per the article) testing and selecting the ammo that was to be Dallas PD's new issue ammo, replacing the 158gr LRN. After the dust had settled they winner was the Winchester 158gr (+P) SWCHP. So (+P) ammo was certainly available back then. Yes Super Vel was out there too, however bullet expansion was not always positive.
Here is the article I was reffering to http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_crimelabtests_200807/
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