Guns no longer welcome at Starbucks
- Thread starter NavyLCDR
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Sapper771
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Zach S
Member
I agree with Kleanebore. The actions of some the the OCers led to the letter.
Take for example the guy that went in with his AR15... The only time I have seen anyone in public with rifle of any kind was somewhere it wasn't out of place, like a range or gun store.
It reminds me of smoking there. You cant do it within 25 feet because you had a few folks that insisted on standing right outside the door and say "but I'm outside!" They weren't doing it to make a polical statement, they were acting out of lack of respect. FWIW, I'm smoker.
IMO, some of the OCers were as well by using starbucks as a staging ground for the 2A debate that they tried to stay out of. You cant let a fire burn out when you have folks on both sides throwing gas on it. And to be honest, it seems "our side" has been using a bigger bucket. Take for example the "I'm carrying my AR15 in Starbucks because its legal to do so" guy.
To be perfectly honest, I think some of us owe him an apology.
please excuse any typos, this was sent from an average intelligence phone
Take for example the guy that went in with his AR15... The only time I have seen anyone in public with rifle of any kind was somewhere it wasn't out of place, like a range or gun store.
It reminds me of smoking there. You cant do it within 25 feet because you had a few folks that insisted on standing right outside the door and say "but I'm outside!" They weren't doing it to make a polical statement, they were acting out of lack of respect. FWIW, I'm smoker.
IMO, some of the OCers were as well by using starbucks as a staging ground for the 2A debate that they tried to stay out of. You cant let a fire burn out when you have folks on both sides throwing gas on it. And to be honest, it seems "our side" has been using a bigger bucket. Take for example the "I'm carrying my AR15 in Starbucks because its legal to do so" guy.
To be perfectly honest, I think some of us owe him an apology.
please excuse any typos, this was sent from an average intelligence phone
jcwit
member
Might have something to do with common sense!
Nothing illegal about walking around with $100 dollar bills sticking out of ones shirt pockets and pants pockets or pined to your cap, but smart to do so? Make up your own mind.
Sapper771
Member
Could we say that it is their right to do what they are doing? I mean , its legal.
(Not arguing with you here jc , bear with me. lol)
Carl N. Brown
Member
Like the guy who open carried an AK pistol in a public park in Tennessee. Most assumed he was an equine derriere and hurt the cause of other gun owners.
I remember a movie where Bruce Willis paraded around Harlem in NYC wearing a sandwich board with what some might consider a First Amendment protected message. Good idea to do just because it's legal and you want to get in the face of those who might be offended? Nope.
Queen_of_Thunder
member
I'll say this again. For open carry the longgun stays on the shoulder at sling arms and the pistol remains in the holster. Thats it. If do as the folks did in the pics then its not open carry. These folks swept people with their firearms to get into their positions for their pics. The weapons were not pointed in a safe direction and they were not defending themselves. They were playing with their firearms in a business. What should have happened was the police should have been called. Hold those irresponsible gun owners responsible for their actions not the rest of us.
I don't see the letter as focused on OC only as it also points to antigun activists as a problem.
Why request that OC displays not be made in Starbucks? Because guns aren't invisible.
The staged displays of firearms are as attention seeking as standing on a soap box in the middle of the place instead of having a quiet social/political/sports discussion with a group of friends while having coffee. The Antis are essentially invisible until they start attention seeking behavior and some fool trotting his shotgun/AR/pistol in to make a point are attention seeking from the moment they walk onto the property.:banghead:
Why request that OC displays not be made in Starbucks? Because guns aren't invisible.
The staged displays of firearms are as attention seeking as standing on a soap box in the middle of the place instead of having a quiet social/political/sports discussion with a group of friends while having coffee. The Antis are essentially invisible until they start attention seeking behavior and some fool trotting his shotgun/AR/pistol in to make a point are attention seeking from the moment they walk onto the property.:banghead:
The antis think anyone that carries, even concealed is an "equine derriere". PETA members think anyone who hunts is an "equine derriere".
The antis have enough labels they like to put on the pro gun crowd. Why portions of the pro gun crowd needs to come up with labels for other portions of the pro gun crowd is beyond me...
I don't think this incident puts Stabucks in the anti persuasion, but I think it does prove they have caved to anti pressure.
It would have been just as easy to say "we follow the laws, we hope all of our customers do as well. We are not a political organization and appreciated it if neither side would use our establishments for their political purposes and rallies."
BTW, what I see in some of those pictures looks like brandishing...pretty sure that is against the law in a lot of places.
pockets
Member
This is not necessarily true at all.
I know (we all know) 'pro-gunners and gun carriers' who are by no means thoughtful...and a number are most certainly unenlightened.
People who own guns are simply people who own guns. They come in as many varieties as people who do not own guns.
.
True.
I do not know who "the rest of us" are, but we have absolutely no reason to conclude that only those persons in those few photos bear the responsibility for the debacle. Other news articles show persons parading around various Starbucks locations and demonstrating with signs and holstered handguns.
That is not a good way to win friends and influence people positively. In our area, the demonstrators walked around with holstered pistols, announced that they were doing so to "exercise" their Second Amendment rights, and caused open carry to be prohibited in several municipalities.
That result should have been readily foreseeable to anyone with any sense--as was the fiasco with Starbucks.
Sapper771
Member
This is kind of where I am going with my questions. I have seen people say that it is legal and their right to open carry an AR/AK in public. Some have even said that they dont care what other people in public think about this, it is their right and they will have to get over it. Also saw where some have said that if you dont exercise your rights, you will lose them.
I have been told that I am wrong because I say that "legal does not always equal right". Some have stated that this is of the anti-gun mentality. I feel it is of the common sense mentality.
I dont have a problem with open carry of rifles. I have a problem with the implications of doing it. As we have seen from this situation.....you make the right person (or enough people ) uncomfortable, bad/negative things usually follow. Some of those pictures of the open carriers in Starbucks do harm our image.....damage that is tough to repair.
Another example is the Appleton,WI Charles/Ross incident, those two guys were within their legal right to do what they did.....but they ended up upsetting enough people (several 911 calls) that now the city Farmers Market ,that Charles and Ross were enroute to, is now looking at prohibiting the open carry of ANY firearm. ( http://www.postcrescent.com/article...130252/Police-bolster-presence-farmers-market)
Should we just shy away and hide our guns? I dont think that is the right answer or fair to those of us that dont act like armed hooligans.
What does it matter if it has been prohibited?
If the very act of doing something legal, then makes it illegal, it may as well have been prohibited in the first place.
I'm glad Virginia has preemption laws. I am sure left wing bastions like Richmond, Charlottesville, Petersburg, NOVA and Tidewater would pass gun laws which would make California blush.
Worse yet, those attention seeking displays shown in the pics and that occured at other Starbucks shops weren't in protest at an establishment that banned firearms on their premisis, but at one who had been attacked for their neutral stance.
Supporting Starbucks while OCing NORMALLY isn't attention seeking behavior, but it takes only a few attention "hounds" who can't differentiate between effective activism in support of RKBA and hurting the cause of RKBA because it is easy to put on a show.
If Antis call for a boycott or protests we should respond in a constructive manner. If we're going to show support for a business that doesn't ban legal carry we need to do it in a manner that doesn't harm them. If we're going to carry or OC we do not need do it in an attention seeking manner or with posturing so we continue to show the public that we're responsible and as worthy of their trust as any good neighbor instead of the people the Antis try to paint us all to be. IOW, if we stick to the high road in our efforts to challenge the prejudices and bigotry the Antis propigate we will show the general public the inherrent lies of the Antis, but when some people won't we're all harmed.
Supporting Starbucks while OCing NORMALLY isn't attention seeking behavior, but it takes only a few attention "hounds" who can't differentiate between effective activism in support of RKBA and hurting the cause of RKBA because it is easy to put on a show.
If Antis call for a boycott or protests we should respond in a constructive manner. If we're going to show support for a business that doesn't ban legal carry we need to do it in a manner that doesn't harm them. If we're going to carry or OC we do not need do it in an attention seeking manner or with posturing so we continue to show the public that we're responsible and as worthy of their trust as any good neighbor instead of the people the Antis try to paint us all to be. IOW, if we stick to the high road in our efforts to challenge the prejudices and bigotry the Antis propigate we will show the general public the inherrent lies of the Antis, but when some people won't we're all harmed.
Queen_of_Thunder
member
A holstered firearm is not the problem. When one demonstrates a lack of muzzel discipline thats when we have problems.
beatledog7
Member
Kleanbore, I would imagine they'd freak out.
Quenn, the average citizen wouldn't care about muzzle discipline per se, since they (for the most part) have no idea what it is. They'd simply think, "OMG, he's got a gun."
X-Rap
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The problem isn't Starbucks, it is the people who are grandstanding and wish to identify themselves as some kind of ground breaking pioneer. I personally would say that a large percentage of the ones causing problems are fairly new to the gun world, read a lot of gun forums and probably have a modern public school civics education.
We face a social norm problem with the OC issue and it won't be fixed over night and shock and awe will have its ups and downs. The folks in the big city will likely cause a scene while the same behavior in rural AZ, WY, NM would hardly warrant a second look.
Kind of like the ladies who want to be able to go topless in public, the ones doing it on Sunday in front of the church are going to get a lot more attention than those who might do it at the beach or deck of a boat or out on a mountain trail or meadow. Eventually most people will come to accept it but there will be setbacks from those who push the envelope to hard.
We face a social norm problem with the OC issue and it won't be fixed over night and shock and awe will have its ups and downs. The folks in the big city will likely cause a scene while the same behavior in rural AZ, WY, NM would hardly warrant a second look.
Kind of like the ladies who want to be able to go topless in public, the ones doing it on Sunday in front of the church are going to get a lot more attention than those who might do it at the beach or deck of a boat or out on a mountain trail or meadow. Eventually most people will come to accept it but there will be setbacks from those who push the envelope to hard.
Tempest in a tea cup. Choose your battles. Starbucks and protesters could have done better. Choices people... They made theirs(Starbucks) you can choose to go elsewhere. I'll never understand the mystic of mocha - jokah anyway. Black with two creams please in the drive through .
The problem is in the mind of the beholder.
For many citizens, probably a large majority in urban and large suburban areas, a holstered firearm is a major problem. That is not usually a very objective assessment, but it is very real.
Did you miss Post #202?
I'm not sure which part of the country you're living in or which time frame you might be referring to, but a Tall coffee at Starbucks cost less than a coffee at Denny's...I don't think I've seen a $.25 cup of coffee in a coffee shop in 40 years.
It doesn't help the discussion when your statement isn't supported by facts or some semblance of reality
Arkansas Paul
Member
Where are you buying coffee?
And Starbucks isn't as expensive as everyone is saying. I buy coffee there frequently and it's less than $2 a cup.
Also, and I know this isn't on topic so forgive me, I wonder how many people who are complaining about $5 cups of coffee go out and pay $8-$10 per drink at a bar. Just wondering.
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