Why I Object to Concealed Carry Licensing

I stand by my statement "Range marksmanship and skill does not make for a good gunfighter. It is well established that it self-defense situation basic skills and fundamentals are forgotten and go right out the window'"and "It establishes arbitrary standards that are not relevant to many actual self-defense incidents."

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Perhaps there's a bit of a disconnect here in what we're actually saying or think we're discussing.

"Range marksmanship and skill," if referring to bullseye-type "square range" shooting certainly may have little effect on a shooter's performance in a gun fight -- which has little similarity at all to stand-and-deliver marksmanship.

However, you do fight as you train. Practical training and practice in dynamic defensive scenario shooting may be a critical factor in whether a shooter prevails or fails when he has to draw his gun defensively.

It expands the power and size of Government.

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And it's already too big. Govt has it's corrupt, hypocritical nose in every area of our existence. It's completely out of control and anybody who can't see that is blind.

I'm "debating" on another thread re this very subject. It seems that some here applaud Big Government. Some even have a "cradle to grave government" mentality.

Government is already too big, and any rules/laws dictating who gets to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights is downright nefarious.

hehehehe here in the united states of south africa you are encouraged to carry concealed , only and idiot would open carry here and I agree with the op it's just downright ridiculous.
Concealed carry is just so much better in so many ways .

firstly what people don't see doesn't bother them , so if they can't see you are carrying a gun they won't be making a fuss about it.

secondly if criminals can't see you are carrying a gun they won't target you for it.

thirdly if criminals can't see you are packing heat they won't be preparing themselves for a hard target and you will have the benefit in the event of an attack

fourth point , if you walk into a violent situation and you are surprised you have a choice not to draw your weapon and ESCALATE the situation , you can wait for a better opportunity , with open carry you will be compromised because everybody will see you are a carrying a gun and the people perpetrating the violence will actually target you.

and that is my five cents worth

Great essay. I agree 100%.

If you cannot afford a pistol permit carry a good knife. No knife permits yet.

Here in Florida it cost me a total $175, and the license is good for 7 years. Thats $25 a year. Seems reasonably priced to me.


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BSAI,

I think, if I understand what you're saying, you're making a subtle point about training. You're saying that a great many people, despite their shooting backgrounds, may not be as well prepared as they think they are. Surely, you're not going so far as to say that familiarity with firearms and practice shooting is a waste of time because under pressure you'll forget it all anyway. It seems to me that any kind of familiarity with firearms is better than nothing, and the right kind of training is invaluable--not that I would presume to define for anyone else exactly what kind of training has value.

In the case of the NYPD shootings it gives rise to the question of how Officers are trained. In theory, at least, LEO's are trained how to react in combat situations whereas many, and I think it is fair say, most civilians do not have any such training.

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OMG, you've never shot or trained with police officers have you?

Trust me, you wouldn't want to go armed with only the training that most of them get and/or skill they possess, and NY seems to be best of the worst from some personal experience I've had training with their officers and hearing about their home training programs.

I see the OP edited his original statement a bit.

Then this:

There are volumes, and I mean literally volumes, of incidents where the fundamentals of shooting and marksmanship go out the window when the shooting starts.

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One could otherwise posit that when this happens, it only serves to reflect that the fundamentals of shooting and marksmanship were never mastered.

For the record, Mr BSA1, I have read probably almost everything Mas Ayoob, Clint Smith and Jeff Cooper ever wrote. And since I have worked for many years as a firearms instructor for a large law enforcement agency, I will continue to strongly disagree with this statement:

It is well established that it self-defense situation basic skills and fundamentals are forgotten and go right out the window'

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which seems to imply that everyone -- everyone! -- involved in self-defense situations "forgets" the basic skills and fundamentals they've learned, resulting in mostly misses and innocent bystanders being shot.

Certainly, anyone who has actually read Mssrs. Ayoob, Smith and Cooper would not agree that their writings support your ridiculous contention. And using the worst examples of NYPD officer-involved shootings to "document" your case? C'mon, now. For every ugly example you could possibly come up with, I'm pretty sure with a little actual research you could come up with a hundred examples of law enforcement officers expertly applying skills and fundamentals in righteously shooting their intended targets.

Now, if the OP had stated that one's being able to punch small groups of holes in paper targets from a static position on a range at seven yards, with no bullets coming back at one, has little or no bearing on one's ability to successfully defend one's self in a real, life-or-death scenario, I might agree.

I agree... mostly.

Great post OP! Thanks...

Pardon me, but are you being deliberately obtuse, or did you not actually read my remarks? I said nothing about my department's training, which is probably about average for our region; I merely pointed out that you are wrong when saying that there is a preponderance of evidence to suggest that shooting fundamentals and marksmanship automatically go out the window during real-life shooting incidents.

For the record, however, I'll say that it's my belief that anyone who decides to carry a firearm for self-defense/defense of home and family should avail themselves of all the training they can afford or find the time for ... Should the state mandate this? I don't believe so.

At this point, I'm not even sure what your real position is, since in one thread, you argue for willing registration of firearms, yet in another, argue against the state's licensing carry permits.

You seem to be arguing that because it's your belief that anyone involved in a defensive shooting will default to zero, why should the state mandate a level of training?

Pretty much the only reason I've not gotten my permit is the cost. I can't justify spending that money when I already spend too much on guns as it is, and with a kid on the way it's a little harder to feel good about spending that extra cash. You'll get no argument from me!

Facts not in evidence

Let's just start at the top:

It discriminates against three groups that are the most vulnerable; the poor, those living on fixed incomes and single female parent households.

Reason; Obtaining a concealed carry permit is expensive, even more so for the two groups living on low and fixed incomes;

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It doesn't have to be expensive (in my state, less than a pre-Obama brick of .22lr for 5 years), and how could it ever be more expensive for low income people? That doesn't make any sense at all.


First as part of the process many States require the applicant to attend a class.

Not always required, not an integral part of the licensing

(lots of "many", "may", "ifs" skipped over)


The second part is a shooting range qualification.

Not always required, not an integral part of the CCW process.

So basically, you don't like the way a couple of states handle the process and are therefore against the process in its entirety? I would prefer Vermont style, but your arguments fail to make the case.

It doesn't have to be expensive (in my state, less than a pre-Obama brick of .22lr for 5 years), and how could it ever be more expensive for low income people? That doesn't make any sense at all.

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Not costing more dollars for low income people. I think it was pretty clear he meant costing a larger percentage of their available funds. E.g.: To some of us a Mercedes is a very expensive car. For others it isn't.

I agree that some states present less of these burdens than others (mine, like yours, is almost no burden at all) but they are burdens which should not exist regardless.

Unfortunately most states are much more burdensome than yours or mine making his arguments fairly compelling to the residents of a great many states.

Those specific arguments don't speak to the very most fundamental reasons to oppose required licensing, of course, but many arguments may help win the point.

As a disabled person living on a fixed income I would have to agree with most of the OP.s original post. But I would also disagree with some of the statements made about training going out the window at the first sign of trouble! And the statement about veterans not seeing action. As an open carry advocate in my state, one of the reasons most citizens say they don't get one is the cost of the permit! The second reason is the red tape that intrudes into our lives. Constitutional Carry Should be our next goal! But people are right, We Have Come ALONG WAY! Just my thoughts on the subject.

This whole thread should be a moot point. Politicians have picked away at the 2nd amendment to the point where "infringed" should just be removed.

There is an actual cost associated with getting the permit. The majority of Utah's fee goes to the federal background check. And it takes someone some time to crank that card through the laminator.

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Are you sure about that? Isn't the federal background check free when you purchase a weapon at a gun store? So how expensive could it be when you are getting a permit?

+1 for the comment SAM1911 made on LEO training.

j1 said:

If you cannot afford a pistol permit carry a good knife. No knife permits yet.

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Many states and cities make it illegal to carry a knife. In Seattle it is against the law to carry any fixed blade knife, and any folding knife with a blade over 3 1/2" even if the person has a Concealed Pistol License!