Tell me about H&K Pistols

I personally like the USP 45 Compact. I like how it shoots and that the thumb controls may be setup to suit the user. It can even be carried cocked and locked. All it needs is a good holster, night sights, and some flat magazine base plates.

$1200 for the gun mentioned seems high for what it is. It does not do any more than any other gun in its class.

Can't resist:

Hey, did you realize those bullet are facing the wrong way..

Hey, did you realize those bullet are facing the wrong way

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Yup...famous marketing glitch...without compromise!

If an HK routinely cost 50 to 100% more than a comparable Glock, what do you get in return? More accuracy? More durability? If it just subjective pleasure, based on personal preference only, then I have to wonder if it is worth the higher price.

What do I get from H&K that I don't get from Glock?

I get my preferred manual of arms - a hammer-fired pistol with a manual safety - as well as my second choice - a traditional DA/SA setup with decocker. I do not care for the Glock's method of operation; I don't like striker-fired pistols and I don't like the way the Glock combines a relatively light trigger pull with an absence of external safeties. Fine for a range toy, not what I want in a defensive pistol.

I get a pistol that fits me. Glocks don't fit my hands. The grip angle is wrong, the finger grooves are wrong. Putting a Glock in my hands is the proverbial square peg, round hole problem. They're not comfortable to me. But the USP fits pretty well despite its blocky profile, and the P30 and HK45 fit me like the proverbial glove. (I want a pair!)

I get a pistol that I shoot well right out of the box. I'm sure that with time I'd be a good shot with a Glock. You can get good at anything with enough practice. That's assuming I could overcome the fit problems, of course. But the first time I fired a USP was enough to convince me that here was a pistol that's plenty accurate in my hands. It wasn't quite like the first time I fired a CZ 75, but it was up there.

I've played around with Glocks and tried to see what it is that folks see in them. And I do see it, but for me it's just not there. I've thought about a G17 or G19 for a range toy, I've thought about a G20 for fun with the 10mm. I just can't get past the poor fit. I've looked at M&Ps, I've looked at assorted other polymer guns. The only ones I've ever found that fits my preferences, my hands, and my wants/needs are made by Heckler & Koch.

The only ones I've ever found that fits my preferences, my hands, and my wants/needs are made by Heckler & Koch.

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That right there is justification of the cost in your case, and I cannot (nor should I) argue that.

Where I become annoyed is some fanboy trying to convince me that the HK is better than a Glock, Sig, S&W, FN, etc. None of them can actually quantify why, but still insist that they are.

I had a USP45 stainless. It was combat accurate and plenty reliable, but also had the profile of two rough blocks of pine, and the trigger guard rubbed my finger raw in any range session that was more than 2 or 3 boxes. I sold it at a loss to fund the purchase of a pristine S&W 1006, and never looked back.

In my case, I find HK ergonomics disagreeable, don't feel they are particularly attractive, and have yet to handle one with a trigger that I liked. So for me, no, they absolutely aren't worth the asking price. More to the point, even if they were less expensive than some of the competition, I still wouldn't buy another one.

Some of you guys must be pretty lousy shoppers! The complaints about HK pricing seem to me to be pretty overblown. If you check Bud's or any of the LGS in my area you'll find USPs starting at about $750 brand new, and cheaper of course used. That's not Glock or Hi-Point cheap but it's not outrageous, either. Right now you can get a P30S at Bud's for around $840 shipped. At any rate, most of them are made in Germany. If HK sent manufacturing to China or Brazil I suppose they'd be cheaper, with all the attendant 'benefits' that go along with that. You're paying for labor that costs more; German wages are higher. Incidentally you're paying for a tremendously skilled workforce, many of which have worked making guns for generations. You're also paying for very expensive and laborious QC measures that go far beyond what most gun makers employ.

You also don't hear people bitching about a Corvette because it's not steel! That's part of why/how it performs well. Why should a pistol with a polymer frame have to cost less than a metal one? That expectation is baseless and doesn't reflect the reality of how guns are made. Unless a gun is made out of gold I can't imagine why the frame material should affect the price of the gun that much. Aluminum is hardly expensive, and steel is far cheaper. The choice of frame material is dictated by engineering concerns for the most part. Would Glock have risen to the level of popularity they enjoy today if they cranked out yet another steel gun?

I love my HKs because they're a very very rare breed to me: Modular guns that can be set up like I want. I carry Condition One. Do some Googling and list all the guns that you can run C1 safely. Then narrow that list down to the ones you actually would. For instance, I really liked my FNP45 Tactical but the safety was tiny, and detent was very weak (you could brush it off on clothing). Technically you can have the gun cocked and apply the safety but I certainly wouldn't have dreamed of carrying it that way.

I like that HK doesn't have much 'flavor of the month' about them. They don't chase trends and dump half assed guns on the public for beta testing. They don't seem to have many recalls where they admit they don't have any idea how to fix the guns, nor do they start "perfect" and get steadily more flakey with each passing Gen.

As for the guns, that's totally subjective. I love the USP and find the ergonomics to be superb. Fits my hand like a glove. It's pretty much pointless to debate something as subjective as this. It's like all the posts that read "what IWB holster should I get?" All the replies will just be posters saying what they use. Will that help you? Who knows?

Do some Googling and list all the guns that you can run C1 safely.

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Umm, pretty much all of them except for single action revolvers and the CZ52. Just because you're not comfortable with a 1911 or CZ75 carried C&L doesn't mean it isn't safe to do so.

Yeah, got to say you lost me as well with that comment Phaedrus. Are you seriously implying that HK's are some of the only guns that are "safe" to carry condition 1? If so, that's preposterous. If not, what ARE you trying to say with the "Googling" comment. I'm lost.

Bottom line is that you get to own whatever you like at whatever cost you are willing to pay.

No point in trying convince anyone out their personal preference. Free market and freedom to choose rather.

I like H&K and Glock, and somedays I like neither while carrying my other pistols. They offer different utility to me. Just like my Sigs, Colts, DWs etc. If H&K prices, like I said before, were ridiculous - they would not be in market selling the number of pistols that they do. SUBJECTIVE!

Either it's a writing issue on my part or a reading comprehensive problem on yours. Reread my post again, slower if you have to. I never said 1911s can't be carried C1. I said Google for the ones you can. Now count them up. You don't have a huge list. Certainly the 1911, the BHP, the CZ75 clones/variants. I can list some more (that are no longer made); the Star PD, the Star BM come to mind.

Now when you're finished with the list, how many of the would you want to own? I liked to carry my Star PD, but it wasn't much fun to shoot. I never had problems with mine but reports were the frames tended to crack eventually- not surprising given the small size and econo alloy frame. My PD ran well but had a single stack mag and weighed more than my BHP!

Now look at all the striker-fires/safe-action sidearms you can buy. That will take some time! My back-of-a-napkin notes show maybe ten SA/DA or striker fired guns out there for every hammer fired gun that can be run C1.

That's all I was trying to say.

Hahaha! We made it to page five before you showed up, el Godfather! I thought you had it set up to be notified when the letters "HK" were posted!

Just to clarify a bit, I carried a BHP for at least 20 years. And I probably would still be carrying it if it worked right. Had an ammo issue that looks to have damaged my extractor, just haven't got it sorted out yet. But even when I do, the BHP probably won't see much CCW in the future. Sadly, it seems that holster makers are not showing it much love nowadays. Even during the "prime" of the Hi-Power many holsters sold for it were simply 1911 holsters that were marked for use with the BHP. Not a lot of rigs made just for it now. I've become a very big Garrett Industries fanboy and they can't make a holster for the Hi-Power. I may scrape up the cash to get Red Nichols to make me an 008 Big Shot for it if I manage before he retires.

For the most part my P30S is pretty much the heir apparent to the throne of the BHP, at least for me. Not quite as thin though the slide but it's the ergonomic equal and the hammer doesn't bite the web of my hand.

Phaedrus/69

Read post #45

I wonder why everyone thinks that I like H&K?! My signature also has Glock as disclaimer to keep 'them' thinking.

Oh, missed it! Well, I for one will admit to being a shameless HK fanboy. But not for no reason. I'm pretty fond of FN, too. Ruger hasn't let me down either.

Right now I have an HK USC on layaway! My plan [gulp!] is to do the UMP conversion eventually. Yeah, everyone should have a $1500 ten shot .45 carbine, right?

^ how do you do ump conversion?

No shame in speaking your mind. H&K is well H&K. When they came out with P30 and then 45, they just set a new standard in ergonomics for me. Nothing fits my hands better then P30. Whereas usp controls are just awesome.

The more I shoot, the more I find I can wrap my hands around most any handgun, and begin to care less about grip shape. What if one pistol felt great in the hand, but for some unknown reason, another pistol allowed you to hit every target you aimed at, and quickly. I have had that happen more than once, and even though it didn't change my liking that sweet feeling pistol, it made me respect the other. To me, "Feels great in the hand" is overrated. Performance SHOULD be king.

Phaedrus, condition one simply means ready to fire without having to manipulate a bolt handle, slide or hammer. A striker fired pistol is C1 when a round is chambered, as is any SA, DAO or TDA gun. Condition one does not require an external hammer.

Therefore, as I have already said, the list of handguns that can be safely carried C1 is pretty much everything that is not a single action revolver, a CZ52 or another pistol that is unsafe to carry C&L for mechanical reasons. Beretta, Glock, M&P, XD, all Sigs, S&W 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen autos, 1911, CZ75/83/85/97/SP01/etc..........it's a very long list.

SharpsDressedMan said:

The more I shoot, the more I find I can wrap my hands around most any handgun, and begin to care less about grip shape. .

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ditto....I've been shooting a Glock 19 for about 2 years now, and then I bought a Ruger SR9c....until I shot the Ruger, I didn't even notice how thick the Glock's grip is. I shoot both guns well though.

Good pistols. Sure they are fine and have a good reputation.

Worth twice the cost of the competition? No way.

I've owned and/or fired nearly ever modern small arm pistol type. I have owned 4 HK pistols in 9mm, .40, and .45. They were unremarkable in my view. Felt comfortable and looked nice and professional... but compared to the competition, they were bigger and fatter, and held less rounds. And, again, much more expensive. And their mags are much more expensive and rare too. So, I sold them all.

For the same money, you could buy a $500 gun, and piles of magazines and ammo, donate the the NRA, and buy a annual range membership!

Shop for something more affordable that does just the same or better job. I'd pick a $500 Glock, XD, M&P over an HK every time.

There is happiness in being financially smart.

I would prefer the USP with a hammer. I will not own a striker fired pistol (just my preference). I like Sigs just as well as most HK's. I think Sigs and HK's are worth every dime, but that is my choice and the fact is we all are just basing opinions. The facts are they are just as well built as any mass produced firearm, and better than some. Some hate Hk because they cost more, but they actually just went up with inflation. I paid $500 for my first USP in 2001. Others just hate them... The fact is until you see the pride they take in manufacturing these, it is surprising. I was surprised at the low amount made and the tests that they put each model through. When I saw the 416 with 120,000 rounds through it, and it still shooting within military specs, it is impressive. The barrels really impress me.

As far as comfort, the new grips on the Sigs are as comfortable to me. I have carried a Sig for quite some time now.

It is just like everybody who hates Colt, Remington, Savage..etc. either they have a reason, or just do. Either way it doesn't change the quality of the firearm. Colt has the worst customer service I have ever delt with but I still think they make a good product.

MachIVshooter said:

Phaedrus, condition one simply means ready to fire without having to manipulate a bolt handle, slide or hammer. A striker fired pistol is C1 when a round is chambered, as is any SA, DAO or TDA gun. Condition one does not require an external hammer.

Therefore, as I have already said, the list of handguns that can be safely carried C1 is pretty much everything that is not a single action revolver, a CZ52 or another pistol that is unsafe to carry C&L for mechanical reasons. Beretta, Glock, M&P, XD, all Sigs, S&W 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen autos, 1911, CZ75/83/85/97/SP01/etc..........it's a very long list.

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Pretty much everything without a decocker and that isn't DAO... I don't need Google to tell me that's a crapload of different options.

Value is in the eye of the beholder.

To me SIGs and HKs are worth the investment. But I look for best prices and would never pay $1200 for a P2000SK when they can be purchased online closer to $825. I just spent $300 more for a new P30LS than I would have for a XDM. To me that is not that much more for the enjoyment I personally will get out of it over decades of use. When you take the resale values into account the difference in investment is much closer.

45 years ago I sold my Remington shotgun for a Browning Auto 5 and never regretted the extra investment nor once ever worried about if I was getting my moneys worth. I still have that Browning Auto 5 which makes me smile every time I handle it and will own it until my death.

My neighbor does not understand why I wasted my money on a Honda lawn mower when in his eyes his Craftsman is just as good and mows the lawn just as well or why I own Milwaukee and Bosch power tools while he says his Ryobi and Black and Decker tools do the job just as well. I just smile.

The idea that H&K pistols cost twice as much as the competition seems to be getting tossed around a lot. Except they really don't. I bought a new USP9 recently for $680. Same store was selling new G19s for $499. I wouldn't pay $1000 for a H&K...but I've never yet found any gun I'd pay $1000 for. OK, maybe a Colt Delta Elite.

There's happiness in getting a good deal on a pistol you like, too.

sigarms228 said:

45 years ago I sold my Remington shotgun for a Browning Auto 5 and never regretted the extra investment nor once ever worried about if I was getting my moneys worth. I still have that Browning Auto 5 which makes me smile every time I handle it and will own it until my death.

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My dad said he owned 2 A5s....said they were the biggest jammomatics he has ever dealt with traded one on a Remington 1100 and has never looked back

Sergei Mosin said:

I bought a new USP9 recently for $680. Same store was selling new G19s for $499..

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Where was this??? I have NEVER seen a new USP for under $750

I bought a new FNP 40 for $550...same store was selling the USP 40 for $900