What, are iron sights diseased or something?

Get something that is chambered in a still-popular and ubiquitous cartridge. Getting a rifle does you little good if it is hard to find ammo for it. That precludes the French MAS 36 from being on the list, for example.

Click to expand...

Your referring to the 308 and 30-06 that have been absent from store shelves, yes?

'Ubiquitous' means that everyone has one... so everyone will be buying up the ammo.

Brass cased soft points for 7.5 French and 303 British have been available the entire time. There was no rush on those cartridges... yet millions of guns were made, so there will always be ammo.

Huh?

Scopes are for shooting, not spotting. The ever-present safety police should be all over this but seldom even respond. It's never a good idea to be pointing your rifle all over creation spotting game. This is a job for binoculars. It's not a loaded rifle, it weighs less, will not induce fatigue and it's less movement. Better all the way around.

Click to expand...

While I agree with some of the points you made in your post, I think you went a little overboard here.
There was no mention made of using the rifles scope as an area search device (an absolutely idiotic and possibly suicidal course of action). All that was mentioned was using the scope to count points and determine tine length.
The deer has already been "spotted" either by eye or binoculars and the hunter is using his scope to determine if it's a legal, shootable animal.
Unless other hunters are dressing up in deer hides and crawling around the woods on all fours (reference my comments above on "idiotic" and "suicidal"), they're not going to be in any danger.

If you have what you believe to be a legal animal in front of you and continue to use your six or eight power binoculars to count points rather than a nine or twelve power scope, your deer must be more sedentary and trusting than the ones I usually meet up with.

Can you please explain exactly why pointing a rifle at a deer is dangerous when you're deer hunting?

The deer has already been "spotted" either by eye or binoculars and the hunter is using his scope to determine if it's a legal, shootable animal.

Click to expand...

If you have binoculars, why are you using your rifle scope to count points?

If you have what you believe to be a legal animal in front of you and continue to use your six or eight power binoculars to count points rather than a nine or twelve power scope, your deer must be more sedentary and trusting than the ones I usually meet up with.

Click to expand...

I would say you have a case of too much scope and too little binocular.


Funny how hordes of iron sight hunters have no problem spotting game with binoculars and shooting them with iron sights.

Ruger Gunsite Scout

The Ruger Gunsite Scout has iron sights, plus a forward-mounted picatinny for a scope, in fact, I think they probably had Jeff Cooper in mind when they designed it (although I guess it's about .4 lb overweight, per the good colonel's specs).
Of course, the BLR is a nice rifle, too. (I like mine, but I wouldn't mind having a Ruger Scout, too.)

If you have binoculars, why are you using your rifle scope to count points?

Click to expand...

Because I've already positively identified it as a DEER and while my binoculars have excellent range and a laser flat trajectory, they have absolutely ZERO knockdown or killing power! Also deer MOVE, they get behind things or they place themselves between you and the direction of other hunters or they hear you when you put down your binoculars and pick up your rifle and run like HE double hockey sticks!

Originally posted by: Temp430

Iron sights are fine close in. But when it comes to deer hunting many States have no spike horn rules meaning any buck you shoot must have at least one fork at least 1 inch long. Estimating the length of a fork on a buck's antlers while he's walking through the woods at dusk or pre-dawn at some distance over 50 yards is kind of hard to do by eye sight alone and pretty much requires deer hunters to have a scope on their rifle.

Click to expand...

While I somewhat disagree with Temps basic premise, to say he's advocating an unsafe act here is absurd. I submit that if a deer is moving past you 50 yards away and you KNOW it's a deer, you'll be a lot more likely to kill it with a rifle than binoculars!

The ever-present safety police should be all over this but seldom even respond.

Click to expand...

Hmmm,,, In Law Enforcement, we call that a clue!
If you're the ONLY ONE that seems to consider this dangerous, either everyone else is wrong, or YOU are.

Think about that for a minute.

In any case I've answered your question, now please quit your attempts at redirection and answer mine.

Can you please explain exactly why pointing a rifle at a deer is dangerous when you're deer hunting?

Also, a question for the OP:
Is there a legal reason that you're restricting yourself to a manually operated rifle?
If so the BLR really isn't a bad choice.
Being as you're apparently a student of Chairman Jeff, do a little research on the "Brooklyn Special". The Colonel had a lot of respect for lever guns, particularly the Winchester Model 94 "Trapper" in 30-30. If you set one up with a "Ghost Ring" aperture they're very fast handling and have decent power and accuracy out to 200 yards.

If you're not legally restricted to manual operation you might give some consideration to what fragout said regarding M-14 clones. They come with excellent iron sights and with a Bassett or Brookfield type scope mount they hold zero very well assuming a good scope.

Kendal Black said:

Another option: Keep your present rifle and scope. Add a spare scope. If you like, switch to some kind of Return (nearly) to Zero mounting system.

Click to expand...

nominating this for simplest, most direct solution (though I guess if you're imagining yourself also having to schlep everything you're keeping across the plains of Megiddo, the extra weight could make the apocalypse even more of a bummer).

maniak said:

nominating this for simplest, most direct solution (though I guess if you're imagining yourself also having to schlep everything you're keeping across the plains of Megiddo, the extra weight could make the apocalypse even more of a bummer).

Click to expand...

I anticipate using a different weapon there.

Can you please explain exactly why pointing a rifle at a deer is dangerous when you're deer hunting?

Click to expand...

If you are using your rifle scope to count points on a deer, one might reasonably presume that there are no binoculars present and that the scope is the ONLY optic you would be using. Hence, you would be using it for spotting and pointing in directions that do not contain known targets. Outside law enforcement, we call this deductive reasoning.

Now you can stop trying to make yourself appear smart by trying to make me look stupid. It ain't working.

I have no problem carrying an M14 in the field. (Hunting or deployed for 12 months or more at a time)

It's a rifle for Christ's sake. Not a 27lbs M240B.

Just because some cant carry around one doesn't mean that the rest of us are limited.

Archangel14.... pick one up and find out if it is too heavy or not for YOURSELF.

While your at it, compare the iron sights to other rifles that have them. (The average bolt gun wont in today's world.)

Be advised that M1A/M14's, and 7.62NATO AR types will vary in weight. It will depend on the model.

One of mine weighs out at 8.5 lbs and I can carry it just as far as a 7lbs rifle.
The 1.5 lbs difference wont make any difference whatsoever in my case.

Some additional for the iron sights on any particular SAI M1A, Fulton Armory M14/M21, or LRB Arms M14SA/M25.

National Match sights for example are different than Standard aperture sights for example. Same with the XS sights that SAI sells on their Socom16/II models. It really comes down to how a particular body wants to set their sights up for them.
M1 Garand rear sight assemblies are interchangable.

All of my rifles are scoped; even my .22s. But two of my rifles now wear irons as well, because I have had several scopes go bad on me in the field and having back-up iron sights can save a hunt. Bench/target shooters need not worry, but wear and tear in the field is hard on optics.

All of my rifles are scoped, even my rimfires. My two AR's have iron sights as does my Marlin 336 and my 700 ADL I bought in 2002. I also have five other bolt action rifles without iron sights and I hate it. My next project is to have iron sights installed on them. I've done some pricing and it seems it will cost around $200.00 per rifle. So that is $1000.00 total. I will start in February and have one done every couple of months b/c I ain't rich.

I think it just boils down to personal preference, there is no right or wrong.

I guess I just don't want to lose the ability to shoot with irons. It's tempting to always use a scope. But using irons has some advantages in close shooting situations. I had a squirrel climb down the tree I was standing next to because he wanted to see what the new thing was in his backyard that was there when he woke up. I was so fascinated watching the thing getting closer and closer I let him get so close I could even see it in the scope. It actually came down and sniffed the end of my rifle though. I could hear it. I didn't want to move to sight the rifle because I knew as soon as I did I'd scare the squirrel goo out of that tree rat. So I just shot in his general direction (into the tree of course) and, you guess it, I missed. Yes I missed a squirrel at no more than 2 inches away from my rifle. I have never used a scope to squirrel hunt again. At least I haven't when I was going squirrel hunting. I have shot a squirrel or two with a scope since then when they came around the house and I was hoping to train the dog to tree squirrels by knocking one out at his feet.

Most of my rifles do have scopes. But not all of them. I don't have that much trouble shooting with irons at shorter distances. I used to be able to shoot much further with them but my eyes have gotten a lot worse as the years went by.

Just because some cant carry around one doesn't mean that the rest of us are limited.

Click to expand...

Don't blow up like a bullfrog. I've been hunting with 10lb muzzleloaders for years and last year packed a 4.2lb revolver to boot.

The point being, the M1A is a lot of weight with no advantage over the lighter boltgun, for his application. I don't have a problem with weight, I have a problem with unnecessary weight. I have a problem with the guy looking for a boltgun with iron sights and half the responses are about overweight or underpowered semi-autos.

I'm looking to pick up a new bolt action for service as a "TOGG".

Click to expand...

I'll throw my vote to the Savage Hog Hunter.

You really get a lot of features for the price point and the brand is
known for accuracy. If there is a better rifle, at the same price, I have
not come across it yet and I've been looking into the same sort of rifle
for a while now, Archangel14



Too bad we can't buy this guy yet...
http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=27738#

Ya know, if I were a rich man I would be sorely tempted to
get that hog hunter and add this bad boy to it...
http://store.accurate-mag.com/savageshortactionbottommetalkit.aspx

A nice accurate 308 fed by 10 round detachable magazines would
be pretty darn nifty, in anyones' book.
'course those magazines cost $70 bucks a pop!
Like I said, if I were a rich man...

The Ruger Gunsite Scout is a .308, has iron sights, accepts detachable box 10 round magazines already, and has a laminate stock. True, it cost more than the Savage Hog Hunter, but you also get more. Worth the difference in my opinion.

And, it's available in left hand too, should you so desire.

900F

There are lots of options for rifles with iron sights and optics, both from the factory and aftermarket. AR's are especially accomadating in this regard, but plenty of other options exist too. Pay your money & take your choice. There's almost certainly more of a selection available now than ever before.

I prefer iron sights to any optic. I have a great deal of experience with iron sights and I'm simply quicker with iron sights than optics.

CB900F said:

The Ruger Gunsite Scout is a .308, has iron sights, accepts detachable box 10 round magazines already, and has a laminate stock. True, it cost more than the Savage Hog Hunter, but you also get more. Worth the difference in my opinion.

And, it's available in left hand too, should you so desire.

900F

Click to expand...

Another thing the Ruger has in it's favor is the less expensive magazines.
Midway USA has Ruger polymer magazines for $30, sure beats $70 for the ones
that fit the Savage!


Is the Rugers' flash hider screwed on, or pinned, soldered?

I ask because I think Savage did well to sell the Hog Hunter with
a threaded barrel that works for many suppressors, or muzzle breaks.

Can you swap that flash hider for a suppressor, or muzzle break easily?

You'd have to spend about $4K in ARs and upper receivers to get the versility of the GSR.

Click to expand...

Ummm, no. You could get a LaRue OBR for much less than $4k and have a gun that is vastly more versatile and capable than any ruger bolt gun. When was the last time the GSR won the sniper challenge? Try taking the GSR through a carbine course. Try shooting a round of 3-gun with the GSR. Do some CQB stuff with the GSR and get back to me. The OBR is a more accurate gun and it blows the GSR out of the water in any discussion of versatility.

I do understand why manufacturers quit putting iron sight on most bolt guns as most folks weren't using them anyway. The majority of deer hunters around here prefer to use optics. I am another that will use my scope to check out a deers rack to see if it is legal (after I have spotted it with my eyes). Scopes can also help a lot in low light & make the difference between getting a deer and going home empty handed.

As to the OP's question I have a post 64 model 70 in .30-06 I bought back in '89. It came with iron sights & no scope. As has been posted some would have taken them off. I chose to leave them on & work around them to mount my scope. There should be plenty of used rifles with factory sights available if you dig around. Of course if you like the rifle you have now as has been stated you could just add them to it.

How about the very strong Spanish FR8 (Not the FR7) carbine for about $425? It has three aperture settings plus the open sight, and a cheap tool allows you to elevate the front sight. The FR8 has the large-ring 8mm Mauser action, and is strong enough for commercial .308.
Any similarity to the pricey new Ruger "Scout Rifle" might... not be a coincidence.

How about an SKS? You can add the Tech Sight (TS200 version) at a cost of about $50, and later re-install the original. No cutting, No drilling.

The majority of deer hunters around here prefer to use optics.

Click to expand...

There's no doubt that hunting deer is best done with a scope. That's how I see it anyway. But squirrels are another matter. There's a place in the world for iron sights.

Iron sights have fallen victim to price point pressure. Why add the cost of iron sights that will never be used to a rifle that will have a 3x9 mounted to it? No disease, just a cost.

I have a modern Steyr that came with iron sights. I will never use them.

Not everyone has the eyes to use iron sights.

There is no rifle that I cannot shoot better with a scope on it than anyone can with just iron sights.

I was amazed at my ability to hit a man sized target easily at 200 yards with open sights on a Swedish Mauser. So they do have a practical side to them.

But I have never been amazed at my ability to hit a four inch square at 200 yards with a scope, only unhappy with my groups.

Another thing the Ruger has in it's favor is the less expensive magazines.
Midway USA has Ruger polymer magazines for $30, sure beats $70 for the ones
that fit the Savage!


Is the Rugers' flash hider screwed on, or pinned, soldered?

I ask because I think Savage did well to sell the Hog Hunter with
a threaded barrel that works for many suppressors, or muzzle breaks.

Can you swap that flash hider for a suppressor, or muzzle break easily?

Click to expand...

The Gunsites' flash suppressor isn't permanently attached. You can easily remove it and replace it with any other muzzle device that is threaded the same.