Using high cap magazine in SD/HD

I don't plan on missing near that many times!!

And the surviving neighbors who don't get killed by a 33-round fusillade of missed shots will live to thank me later!!

Spray & Pray will not win you very many gun-fights!!

rc

Why do so many people think that having a hicap must = missing?

I have a few 33 rd mags, but mostly for the Keltec Subrifle.

In the handguns, they stick out too far to be handy, but a 19 or 17 mag will work just fine.

As an aside, if you carry a 26, your reload should be a G-19 magazine without the grip sleeve. You can't pinch fingers or flesh that way seating the mag.

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As long as it isn't against the law in your area, go for it. The fastest reload is the one you didn't have to do.

My first concern would be reliability. Firearms work best with the magazines designed for them. The weight of the ammo column matched to spring rate matched to action velocity. I only have 15rd GI mags for my M1 Carbine for this reason, I'll take 15 for sure vs. 30 maybe.

If the higher capacity mags are, bet your families' life on it reliable, then it is still adding a lot of length and weight as well as changing the balance a bit (on a handgun).

I wouldn't do it just because adding weight and length and changing the balance wouldn't be worth it to me to go from 15+1 to 33. I'm not worried about needing more then 16 rds for home defense. I have spare mags handy for Murphy, mag not seated and falls out, hit the mag release under stress etc. Higher cap won't help with that.

My AR set up for HD has of course 30 rounders, but I would be fine with a 20 in it and a 30rd spare. I wouldn't ever bother with a 40rd Pmag or Surefire 60 in it for SD/HD.

Here's my take on extra high cap magazines.... very nice - but they're not something I ever carried on the job and certainly not something I practiced with until my sidearm was an extension of my hand....

In short... for that once in a lifetime really bad moment, when your heart is up under your tongue and you're scared to death - make sure you have a weapon that you're intimately familiar with if shooting is really necessary. During a 22 year career I always preferred a shotgun to any pistol - but if the pistol was all I had, it was something I lived with during waking hours seven days a week...

As for high cap magazines, it might be nice to have one as part of your ammo load, readily available -but only after you've confirmed its reliability and practiced with it at every opportunity (particulary drills to clear stoppages, jams, failure to feed, etc). As noted above there's a reason that manufacturers use particular mags in their auto pistols...

I don't see a problem with high-cap mags. Makes sense to me.

The chances of needing the entire load of a standard magazine, much less a 33 rounder, is so minute that I don't see any value to using one. It also will affect the way the gun recoils. It's also possible that a prosecutor could try to use such an uncommon item to paint you as a blood thirsty gun nut. My belief is that the closer you are to standard police gear the better as its hard to argue the purpose of such is to fulfill blood thirsty fantasies unless the same is to be said for cops.

Not a likely situation but if you got into a physical grapple over control of the weapon, a 33 rd mag would give the adversary a lot more to grab onto.

I would use what you practice with at the range just because it will feel and handle different.

Is that what you're training and practicing with? Does a 33-round magazine let you make the most accurate hits in the fastest time, or does it get in the way and harm the balance of your weapon?

I can carry a LOT more ammunition in several standard capacity (17, 19, etc) magazines than in one 33-rounder that has a negative impact on the ergonomics and practicality of the weapon, and if I need to reload after my 20th shot? Well, that doesn't take long.

I have used the Glock brand 33rd mags in my Glock 9mm guns and they have functioned flawlessly for me. I personally believe that given 2 shooters in a gunfight, all else equal, the 33 round mag does represent a tactical advantage over 33 rounds in 2 mags. Plus they are cool and there is the investment value of the mags that certain political figures can't wait to ban. 2 thumbs up for buying and using reliable high cap mags.

For a CC serario, the extra legth of the mags sticking out of your pistols could be a giveaway that you are carrying, this can be either good or bad based on the situation.

As an aside, if you carry a 26, your reload should be a G-19 magazine without the grip sleeve. You can't pinch fingers or flesh that way seating the mag.

If you plan to carry any oversize magazine without the appropriate adapter, make sure it won't over-insert into the firearm in question when briskly seated and tie things up.

Why do people always assume they're going to be attacked by just one assailant? Why would you want anything less than the absolute most possible chances to save your own life? And why would you assume that your aim is going to be anything like it is at the range when your fighting for your life, either in a dark house/alley/parking lot and your heart is racing? Larger capacity mags might not always be an option if your CCW, but at the home, doesn't your family deserve every chance in that magazine?
In regards to training, if you train with your standard mag, and never use a larger one you might find yourself being clumsy with the larger one. In the event of an emergency always resort to what your most comfortable with, it's not the time to try new things out.

Why do people always assume they're going to be attacked by just one assailant? Why would you want anything less than the absolute most possible chances to save your own life? And why would you assume that your aim is going to be anything like it is at the range when your fighting for your life, either in a dark house/alley/parking lot and your heart is racing? Larger capacity mags might not always be an option if your CCW, but at the home, doesn't your family deserve every chance in that magazine?
In regards to training, if you train with your standard mag, and never use a larger one you might find yourself being clumsy with the larger one. In the event of an emergency always resort to what your most comfortable with, it's not the time to try new things out.

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I think my family would deserve the best protection and that is why I wouldn't use a pistol anyhow if I were defending my home. Handguns are compromises with a heavy weight placed on size and portability. A 33-rd mag doesn't really help a handgun do what handguns do best.

Why do people always assume they're going to be attacked by just one assailant? Why would you want anything less than the absolute most possible chances to save your own life? And why would you assume that your aim is going to be anything like it is at the range when your fighting for your life, either in a dark house/alley/parking lot and your heart is racing?

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False Dichotomy: I assume none of the above and in fact train for all of the above, yet do not think something like a 33rd Glock mag vs. a 15-19rd one gives my family the best chance of survival for other reasons mentioned in this thread and even by you later in your reply.

It isn't necessarily a bad choice, yet not necessarily the best choice. Ammo capacity is just one piece of the puzzle. There are pros and cons to every gear choice that only the owner can make. There will never be enough reliable empirical data on close combat shooting to definitively say what the best firearm, caliber, capacity, ancillary gear should be. The data samples are way too random for that.

My Sig P226 has a 15 rd standard magazine in it, the reload on my gear is a 20rd. It has been reliable, isn't as far removed from the original design as a 33, balance is good, it's easier to grab and why not? That is an example of splitting the difference of extremes, the 20 rd in the pistol also would work fine since it doesn't affect the balance by a noticeable amount. I also CC it, so that is why the 15 is standard for me.

I understood the data samples on close combat shooting indicated that most incidents occurred with three shots fired. At least in America.

On the other hand, the unfortunate bystanders near Police shootings are getting hit left and right - said police being armed with hi cap magazines.

There is a connection with high capacity and missing - and the cops, unfortunately, have been setting the standard in that regard.

Don't get me wrong, I've got high caps galore stacked in the gun safe. All for one rifle - An AR15 in 6.8. So, for SD/HD, go for it.

A handgun, however, is just that - carried on your person, and the bigger and heavier, the less likely it will be on you when you need it. If it's left in a controlled but accessible place,the extra long magazine sticking out might hinder it's deployment and use. Too much gun in a biometric safe, so to speak.

Since there are issues, it's something to work thru with consideration, but not necessarily adopt with no regards. There may be a situation for it, yes, but don't forget there may be a situation where it's not the best choice.

There is a connection with high capacity and missing

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Correlation does not equal causation.

There is a connection between shooting a firearm and missing. There is a connection between being in a violent encounter and missing. There is a connection between wielding a 2-shot derringer or a 6-shot wheelgun or a 19+1 xDM and missing, under those conditions.

One can point to absolutely NO evidence that says more cartridges CAUSES or influences missing your target.

On the other hand, the unfortunate bystanders near Police shootings are getting hit left and right - said police being armed with hi cap magazines.

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One could point to a correlation between police training and skill and missing -- maybe -- but implicating their standard ("high") capacity sidearms in the effect of missing their targets is as legitimate as blaming the fact that they wear polyester slacks.

When I carry as an example a S&W MP9C with a (12) round capacity magazine the spare magazine is a (17) round capacity with out a sleeve. While its within the realm of possibility that I may require usage of the spare it would more likely be that the (12) round magazine experienced a malfunction. Pursuing the what if multiple combatants scenario we are all in the hands of providence.

rcmodel said:

I don't plan on missing near that many times!!

And the surviving neighbors who don't get killed by a 33-round fusillade of missed shots will live to thank me later!!

Spray & Pray will not win you very many gun-fights!!

rc

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RC, you crack me up. You should have one of those reality tv shows. C'mon, I'll be your agent...

Sam1911 said:

Correlation does not equal causation.

There is a connection between shooting a firearm and missing. There is a connection between being in a violent encounter and missing. There is a connection between wielding a 2-shot derringer or a 6-shot wheelgun or a 19+1 xDM and missing, under those conditions.

One can point to absolutely NO evidence that says more cartridges CAUSES or influences missing your target.

One could point to a correlation between police training and skill and missing -- maybe -- but implicating their standard ("high") capacity sidearms in the effect of missing their targets is as legitimate as blaming the fact that they wear polyester slacks.

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Dont you think their is a reason for the correlation though?

Kind of like people shooting their chrony. HAVING to put a round in the exact spot or it breaks, a lot of folks end up missing. Having to make a good shot doesn't cause you to hit the chrony but it sure seems to happen a lot for that reason. I guess correlation and cause are technically different but they at least seem to be bedfellows.

Looks to me like the more disposable ammo folks have, the less they may focus on the shots, or the first few anyway.Am I making sense at all? Damn it sounded so good until I started typing. :banghead:

Whenever I carry a Glock 19 or Glock 26 for CCW my spare magazine is a standard Glock 17 mag.

You can't over-insert a Glock magazine in a Glock handgun - the magazine and handgun have a feature on them that prevents over-insertion.

Some movies and TV shows feature the hero shooting it out with gangs of heavily armed drug dealers, "firing" hundreds of shots out of dozens of guns as the bad guys keep attacking in regiments.

I have never known of any such situation in real life and certainly never experienced such a thing in some years as a LEO. Anyone who feels he needs a 30 round magazine either thinks he will be in a very unusual situation or he is totally paranoid. (Or he can't hit a barn from the inside and hopes to fire enough shots to hit something somehow!)

Jim

Dont you think their is a reason for the correlation though?

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I'd hate to say that NO person would ever feel that way or act that way, because there assuredly would be some.

But a trained and practiced shooter should have no compunction to wildly fire any shot, whether he has one or 19+1 in the gun.

So the pertinent answer in this discussion is no.

Kind of like people shooting their chrony. HAVING to put a round in the exact spot or it breaks, a lot of folks end up missing. Having to make a good shot doesn't cause you to hit the chrony but it sure seems to happen a lot for that reason.

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But that's not a real thing. There is no more drive to shoot off your line of aim when sighting through a chronograph than when the chrony isn't present. Everyone misses a shot occasionally and say, "whoops" and moves on. But when you shoot your chrony, that's memorable and noteworthy. You go tell your friends. You don't bother to mention the 100 other times you just missed and hit nothing.

Now, a lot of folks don't use a target at all when shooting through the chrony to check speed, and that certainly CAN lead to striking the machine simply due to having no focus at all -- or of looking right "through" the sticks and not even noticing that you're lined up on them. Very different things, though, than a psychological drive to shoot inaccurately because you have extra ammo on board.

I guess correlation and cause are technically different but they at least seem to be bedfellows.

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Well, certainly. Correlation means that two things are happening together and are loosely related in some way (i.e.: They both involve shooting, for instance). Causation means that one MAKES the other happen. You can't have the second without the first, but the opposite is not at all true.

Looks to me like the more disposable ammo folks have, the less they may focus on the shots, or the first few anyway.Am I making sense at all? Damn it sounded so good until I started typing.

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It is "truthy" but not necessarily true. Every gun can be reloaded. Anyone with a modicum of sobriety should be distinctly focused on each shot. The idea that "when you only have one shot you make it count" is a bit of a wives' tale.

It doesn't hold up for hunters: Hunters can't expect to EVER get a second shot at a living animal. Sometimes it happens, but NOBODY throws away the first one because they have a second. Your chances fall from 95% hit probability to about 5% from that first shot to the second. The phenomenon we see is really that only good, calm, disciplined hunters would "dare" take a single-shot into the field because they're confident with their aim and their decisions of when to shoot. Ergo, the rifle gets the credit for making them disciplined. (We ALWAYS credit the gear, when it is ALWAYS the shooter that matters.)

Likewise, it doesn't hold up in self-defence scenarios either, where the pressure to perform is FAR greater.

Yes, there are reasons folks miss disastrously under those conditions, but having fewer rounds in the gun won't EVER change that, at all.