Talk me out of a PS90.

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Personally, I don't know the expanded diameter of a 5.7x28mm round, because I've never found enough bullet fragments to piece one back together. The ones I DID find were too mangled to piece together. Draw your own conclusions on multiple wound tracks, and your chances of locating an artery with one.

And what 9mm bullets are you finding that expand to .70" reliably? That's nearly double the starting diameter of the bullet.

FYI: a 9mm starts at .355, not .375. I'm assuming you made a typo there.
its estimation to make a point
 
Well, someone on this thread is hell-bent and determined to miss the point and continue missing it.


Anybody who doubts Trent should go shoot a match against him and see who performs better, Trent with his PS90 vs anybody with any gun they please. I know who my money is on!
 
Jason,

Why use estimations when making points? It makes you really look like you don't know what in the heck you are talking about. Use facts. Do your homework. A 5 second search on Google would give you the diameter of a 9mm projectile (also, assuming you don't reload, because then you'd probably know it off the top of your head.)

A *good* premium defensive handgun round that retains integrity after the hit, will expand roughly 150% of the base diameter of the bullet when it hits flesh. Certainly, not double. Some rifle hunting projectiles will expand further, but they're made out of stiffer materials and moving a LOT faster.

Also, bore diameter doesn't matter NEARLY as much as shot placement. There's been plenty of instances where bad guys have taken multiple hits from a 9mm and remained a threat. I remember reading of one where the guy was hit 17 times and kept fighting. The cops had to get their AR's out to take him down. And he wasn't even drunk, or drugged. Just determined.

Consider the sheer size (surface area) of the human body. A 9mm defensive round expands to, say, .530", but remains together. It has a permanent crush cavity of .530; the other damage is temporary stretch damage and doesn't cause permanent damage; only the tissue in the direct path of that bullet is destroyed.

Now, consider a .224 diameter 5.7 round hitting. It's got a light jacket, which is immediately fragmented, spinning off in separate wound tracks, while the core of the projectile continues on another foot or so. That 224 diameter hole becomes multiple smaller permanent crush cavities all heading different directions, while you still have a decent sized chunk of metal (the core) going deep in to the tissue to (hopefully) penetrate a major blood vessel, to cause incapacitation.

I have *more* chances of hitting an artery than I would with the 9mm.

But that bullet fragments even on soft obstructions, such as drywall, plywood, pine 2x4's. It means I can't shoot people through walls as well as a 9mm. That 9mm will drill through 5 or 6 internal walls and still kill someone on the other side. The 5.7x28mm will NOT.

BUT THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT, when you have a five level house with 5 kids, 3 dogs, 4 cats, and a wife....

It does ugly things to the inside of a body, without that nasty side effect of killing people you can't see behind walls. (You should't try to shoot through walls anyway to hit an attacker anyway; "know your target and what is beyond").
 
Well, someone on this thread is hell-bent and determined to miss the point and continue missing it.


Anybody who doubts Trent should go shoot a match against him and see who performs better, Trent with his PS90 vs anybody with any gun they please. I know who my money is on!

Yeah, ok... but I want a 10 point handicap if I have to do the course one handed. :)
 
ClickClickD'oh, youre really going to quote me saying handguns are easier to use one handed then a P90, then show me some video of someone shooting one one handed in some attempt to argue that statement?..

No, I'm showing you a video of someone firing a P-90 one handed fully automatic to squash any silly attempts at arguing that a P-90 isn't an exceptionally controllable firearm and to demonstrate that the contrability of the P-90 is clearly far and above what anybody could ask of a firearm.
 
Yeah, ok... but I want a 10 point handicap if I have to do the course one handed. :)
Well, if you have to shoot it one-handed, then so do they. So, somebody shooting pistol one-handed vs. you shooting the PS90 one-handed. Still game? :D
 
At least it's ambidextrous, so it could be operated one handed from either arm for some reason. I think a true PS90 would be front heavy, but they still don't weigh much at the end of the day.

We need to keep in mind; the one thing the 5.7x28 does for the P/S90 that no other round in any other available platform does, is provide fifty rounds in a flush fitting magazine. No small feat to be written off just because you don't like the round relative to offerings in a totally different power class. Closest thing is a Calico or Bizon, which are both much larger with a 16" barrel and essentially unavailable. The 5.7 is indisputably in the same power class as 9mm, but with a frangible rather than expanding bullet, so it functions differently than most rounds compared to the 9mm. This confusion leading to claims it's both a glorified 22WMR and deadlier than 45ACP :scrutiny:

The one thing the five-seven pistol does that a hicap nine can't do (except for the Steyr GB, I guess) is load magazines easily and quickly; double feed magazine just like a rifle :D. Count that, and the pistol probably has a higher ROF than the carbine :D :D

TCB
 
i wonder if an intruder would give you some kind of handycap when shooting the P90 one handed.. maybe he kicked in your bedroom door and its at the side of your bed.. maybe he will come at you extra slow because he knows thats what you have

as for the expanded diameter of a 9x19mm bullet.. and yes.. thats damn near .80", their .45acp bullets expand to over 1", a 5.7x28 expands to .375".. that means youd need to put about four expanded 5.7x28mm bullets together to equal the size of the lead going through from that 9mm bullet.. still think an extra 3 rounds from even a five-seven is worth it?

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Well, if you have to shoot it one-handed, then so do they. So, somebody shooting pistol one-handed vs. you shooting the PS90 one-handed. Still game? :D

Oh hell yeah.

At least it's ambidextrous, so it could be operated one handed from either arm for some reason. I think a true PS90 would be front heavy, but they still don't weigh much at the end of the day.

There is virtually no weight in front of the trigger hand, it's not hard to hold it one handed, even for an extended duration. That's one of the reasons I score so high with it on it in standing stages in sporting rifle - I can pretty much hold it up all day long and not start shaking. Meanwhile, guys with AR's, etc have to lower the gun down periodically to give their arms a break, and stop the shaking.


The one thing the five-seven pistol does that a hicap nine can't do (except for the Steyr GB, I guess) is load magazines easily and quickly; double feed magazine just like a rifle . Count that, and the pistol probably has a higher ROF than the carbine

It's comparable in feel to shooting just about any other pistol. In fact, I had the PS90 first, the FiveSeven came later. I was *shocked* when I took it out the first time and actually felt recoil. I wasn't expecting any, as the rifle has none. But it kicks sharply, enough to throw you off the target.

It takes some practice to get a feel for the Five Seven, as it feels different to shoot than most other handguns. The grips are LONG, which makes it a serious problem for smaller hands to use. (I have gorilla hands so it fits me well).

Part of that is due to the FiveSeven weighing next to nothing. Even loaded. It's like holding air. So you get a sharper recoil impulse than a heavier gun. It's not bad, pretty similar to a polylmer 9mm shooting 124 gr projectiles, or a metal 1911 45 ACP shooting 185 fmj target loads.

The BIG difference here, is the accuracy. The FiveSeven shoots like a damn laser beam and it comes stock with match sights. I can knock off soda cans at 100 yards with it. Some guys can't do that reliably with a rifle.
 
i wonder if an intruder would give you some kind of handycap when shooting the P90 one handed.. maybe he kicked in your bedroom door and its at the side of your bed.. maybe he will come at you extra slow because he knows thats what you have

as for the expanded diameter of a 9x19mm bullet.. and yes.. thats damn near .80", their .45acp bullets expand to over 1", a 5.7x28 expands to .375".. that means youd need to put about four expanded 5.7x28mm bullets together to equal the size of the lead going through from that 9mm bullet.. still think an extra 3 rounds from even a five-seven is worth it?

6739cfce.jpg

That lehigh ammo looks pretty gimmicky. Not to mention the lighter weight 105 grain bullets could be pretty unreliable in various firearms designs. Do any law enforcement agencies actually use the stuff? Considering in all the penetration ballistic tests I've ever seen with that ammo, a *380 ACP* outperforms it?
 
thats just an extreme example, but yeah, ive seen 124 and 147 grain 9mm loads expand to .70", the buffalo bore stuff seems to do incredibly well too.. so if my choice is 17 rounds of that vs 20 rounds of 5.7x28, im going with the 9mm every time, and if you need 50 of them out of a P90 youre probably in a pretty bad situation that id reach for my rifle (5.45x39) to solve.. so the P90 really is a niche firearm.. if you have that niche that needs to be filled or you already have other firearm needs resolved, then by all means get it, i just wouldnt expect the P90 to replace anything i already have and i wouldnt try to sell it off as something thats going to be the best of any particular purpose either.. i like the P90 for what it is, i wouldnt let a like of a particular design cloud my judgement into believing it can do more than it really can or have any level of effectiveness outside of what it really has..

thats why i call it a toy because the only thing id ever use it for would be recreational use, for fun.. ammo is too expensive for plinking, not powerful enough to be used like a rifle, not damaging enough to be used for self defense, and not compact enough for concealed carry.. so what else can you really do with it?.. recreation and thats about it.. but by all means that doesnt mean someone shouldnt buy one if someone wants one.. just because something isnt an ace at any specific purpose doesnt make it any less of a firearm.. ill buy one eventually, i just have a very long list of things that are in front of it in line. atleast 20 different things
 
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SS197 - that's the round that uses the Hornaday blue ballistic tip - expands to about .53" (it varies, since it fragments).

So yeah I would still take the PS90 with 50 rounds. Or the Five Seven with 20. I'll get multiple wound tracks with good expansion and penetration.

As mentioned, repeatedly, it doesn't penetrate barriers intact, which might mean the difference between a kid or animal getting hit. When a 9mm HP hits drywall or wallboard, it will plug that nose and turn it in to a full metal jacket round. That round keeps going. (This is generally true of most all modern hollowpoint ammo; if the cavity is plugged, it will not perform properly; although there are some exceptions to this.)

The PS90 is a niche firearm, but ALL firearms are niche firearms, so I don't see the point here. I'm not going to use my Barrett M95 as a home defense gun. It has a niche. A long range niche. I'm not going to use my Ruger Super Bearcat single action revolver for self defense. It has a niche - training my 9 year old daughter.

The PS90 serves two roles. Home defense, and training. Zero recoil impulse and ease of use makes it ideal for training kids. Here's my younger son; he was all of 10 years old at the time the photo was taken.

HokRoBAh.png

As I've mentioned elsewhere on THR, when you have a firearm in the house for home defense, it's critical that you choose one that ALL residents of the house who are capable of shooting, can use properly. I won't leave a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot in the closet for my wife, it'd kick her ass if she tried to shoot it. I won't leave an AK-47 ready to use, because only me and my son can use it effectively.

But a PS90?

I can use it. My wife can use it. My 16 year old son can use it. My 14 year old son can use it. My 14 year old daughter can use it. My 9 year old daughter can use it.

So if Dad goes down (or I'm not home), there's a line of shooters ready to go.

And I have enough rifles to go around. :)

Zyc1s5Wh.jpg

(Had 12 in inventory when I closed my gunshop in 2009...)
 
Thx a lot Trent!!! Now you've got me wanting yet another gun!! I've been thinking about a FN 5.7 lately and then i read this. Guess it moves to the top spot on the to get list now. Do you load for it?
 
fallout mike;

No, I haven't reloaded for it yet.

I have dies, and TONS of casings (I started selling extras in the classified on here, when I hit about the 10k mark; I can fit 500 even in a small flat rate USPS box).

I bought an ultrasonic cleaner (you can't tumble them due to the dry film lube).

I even have some good projectiles.

But I haven't bought the powder.

This being said.. I'm running very low on good factory ammo and plan to start loading for it this winter. The newest Hornaday reloading book actually has reloading data for it now, which was a first. So it's become mainstream enough that the major reloading component manufacturers are showing support.

V-Max 40gr bullets are running $40 per 250 ($0.16 ea).

The powder charge is diminutive (5.4 gr max), which means you get 1,296 loads per pound of powder ($20), adding $0.015 per round.

Primers I have in huge supply at an average price point of $0.022 each.

So my cost per reload will be $0.197 per round, or $197 per 1,000.
 
Awesome pictures, Trent. Since you seem to be the go-to guy of anything PS90, I have a question for you. Have you handled/fired a P90 or a PS90 that's been converted to a SBR with 10.4" barrel?

I am bent on the P90 or facsimile (a converted PS90 in my case) and wonder what differences in accuracy a loss of 5" gets you.

I'm also always googling American Eagle FMJ (or AE5728A) vs ballistic gel with no luck. I'd like to see the results and suspect it might be a bit more impressive than the energies my suggest. I'm curious at what point that stubby 40gr FMJ tumbles. I'm aware it's a round intended for plinking, but I like the idea of something that provides a bit more penetration than explosive expansion.

What am I talking about?! It's not like I'd ever plan on using it for defense or anything.... :eek:
Again, 50 rounds affords one a lot of follow up shots.

I actually have both AE5728A and SS195SR on hand and I don't even have the PS90 yet. I find if I at least have the ammo for a firearm I want, I end up with it... though I've had this ammo for a while now.
 
[QUOTE="jason41987"..]thats why i call it a toy because the only thing id ever use it for would be recreational use, for fun.. ammo is too expensive for plinking*, not powerful enough to be used like a rifle#, not damaging enough to be used for self defense@, and not compact enough for concealed carry%..[/QUOTE]

* -Ammo is way cheaper than .223 so all the guys I see shooting ARs at the range must be stupid rich.

#- That's subjective and dependent entirely on what you are using the rifle for.

@- Bullcrap and you know it. The only way you keep arguing this is because you are just flat out fibbing or don't have enough knowledge to be in this debate.

%- I've carried my Five-Seven concealed several times. Same with my 1911, CZ-75B and M.96.

Stop spreading garbage lies.
 
I would like to say two things:
1) Mindset, skillset, toolset. As Boyd said.
2) A friend in service said to me about MP7 (with 4,6 mm cal FYI) - I'll be using it within a 100 meter anyway (when the DMR will be slung on back), so there is no point to talk about wound ballistics when the bad guy will be shot in the face. Several times. So he trains accordingly (fast and precise hits, repeatedly) and his unit got deployed to Afg with all kinds of special missions. I believe him.

As a remark - our SF uses the PDW category weapons as defensive (for marksmen and snipers), but sometimes also offensively (whenever deemed necessary, like close quarters). They are small, light and fast. So there are some strengths over "regular" 5.56 NATO rifles.
 
But a PS90?

I can use it. My wife can use it. My 16 year old son can use it. My 14 year old son can use it. My 14 year old daughter can use it. My 9 year old daughter can use it.
This is a very good point, and no matter what anyone else thinks, you have thought this through and made an educated choice for your situation. The PS90 can obviously be used for self defense.

You have probably researched this, but just in case, if you decide to reload for the 5.7X28, it has its own little idiosyncrasies, mostly concerning the shoulder. The 5.7 forum has a ton of good info about it. I even have a couple of old threads there from when I tried it out in an AR 57. The PS90 is a better platform for the 5.7 IMHO.
 
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Awesome pictures, Trent. Since you seem to be the go-to guy of anything PS90, I have a question for you. Have you handled/fired a P90 or a PS90 that's been converted to a SBR with 10.4" barrel?

I am bent on the P90 or facsimile (a converted PS90 in my case) and wonder what differences in accuracy a loss of 5" gets you.

We got SBR rights recently in IL for C&R holders, but last I checked, the ATF was still denying applications saying "legislative intent wasn't for..." (can't remember the rest.

So the two representatives which wrote / sponsored the bill in each house wrote the ATF letters of clarification specifying legislative intent. I was going to give it some time before I send in my app.

I have one PS90 rifle I will get converted to an SBR next year - and also have an accuracy benchmark well established. So I'll know if it loses anything. :)

I'm also always googling American Eagle FMJ (or AE5728A) vs ballistic gel with no luck. I'd like to see the results and suspect it might be a bit more impressive than the energies my suggest. I'm curious at what point that stubby 40gr FMJ tumbles. I'm aware it's a round intended for plinking, but I like the idea of something that provides a bit more penetration than explosive expansion.

American Eagle FMJ was a very accurate load but I had feed problems with the batch of ammo I had. Next year I'll try it again with a different lot; if it doesn't get better, I'll disavow the ammo entirely.

When I roll my own ammo this winter, things will get more interesting. It will be tough to beat the accuracy of the Hornaday 40 gr round, but I'll try. :)

What am I talking about?! It's not like I'd ever plan on using it for defense or anything.... :eek:
Again, 50 rounds affords one a lot of follow up shots.

I actually have both AE5728A and SS195SR on hand and I don't even have the PS90 yet. I find if I at least have the ammo for a firearm I want, I end up with it... though I've had this ammo for a while now.

I have only shot the SS195LF. Not familiar with "SR". I have a few boxes of SS195LF left, I use it in my pistol when I'm wanting more accuracy; for some reason it shoots a LOT better in the pistol. The downside is it isn't shelf-stable, the primers they use purportedly have a shelf life of 7-10 years. I'm keeping the last few boxes as a reference point so I have a comparator when I make my own ammo this winter.

You have probably researched this, but just in case, if you decide to reload for the 5.7X28, it has its own little idiosyncrasies, mostly concerning the shoulder. The 5.7 has a ton of good info about it. I even have a couple of old threads there from when I tried it out in an AR 57. The PS90 is a better platform for the 5.7 IMHO.

Yes, the case dimensions are critical. The earliest dies produced by Lee were straight walled and caused all sorts of problems, leading many to think the round wasn't reloadable at all, since it'd jam in the magazine. Newer dies are dimensionally accurate. 5.7x28 has a very slight taper to the case, and the LENGTH of the case from base to shoulder has to be *precise*.

When it's fired, the case expands and grabs the chamber - as the pressure drops, the dry film lube coating allows the cartridge to begin sliding rearward. There is no "locking lugs" on the PS90, as there is with conventional rifles, it's straight blowback operation.

This means that the case WILL stretch significantly.

Now, that tapered case, and the shoulder at the end of it, are critical to headspacing (there are no locking lugs). Fortunately the PS90 was gifted with a "safety sear" (serving the same function as an auto-sear in machineguns), not allowing the rifle to fire if the bolt isn't fully forward. Lack of a forward assist means you can't get that round in battery if it is dimensionally incorrect; so it's pretty safe.

However! Due to the relative ease of converting a firearm with a "safety sear" to full automatic operation, some newer models LACK the safety sear entirely. This is a BIG problem for reloading as you can actually chamber and fire out of battery rounds which are not dimensionally correct. The result of firing an unsupported 5.7x28mm round in a rifle is catastrophic.

Before shooting reloads, make sure your rifle DOES have the safety sear in the trigger pack. You'll see a little piece in the forward section of the trigger pack, which has a curved knob that sticks up. This rides the bolt, and when it's depressed, releases the hammer to the second stage - where it is held back by the main sear.

(Also, if you own an older PS90 gun, take care not to try to mess with the trigger pack, it's not user servicable, there are blind-pins that you can't remove to take parts out of it.)

Anyway enough of that side-track.

The casing itself has that dry film lubricant on it. Many people have tried (and failed) to find another substance that functions the same as it. IF YOU TUMBLE YOUR BRASS YOU WILL STRIP THIS DRY FILM LUBE. You'll know it too, visual inspection will make it look like it's peeling blisters from a sunburn. That case is now junk.

The only way to safely clean the brass is in an ultrasonic cleaner using chemicals which will not strip that dry film lubricant. Simple Green is one such solvent which is not only non-toxic, but won't strip the dry film lube off of it. It's also readily available (and an awesome general purpose firearms cleaner...)

Once the casings are clean you have to *carefully* set the sizing dies up so they resize to the precise dimensions (length) of the original cartridge!

After that, it's pretty much just like any other cartridge. Primer, powder, seat a bullet, and done.

(That's the extent of my research so far, from memory, if anyone has stuff to add by all means... add!)
 
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