What exactly is included in overall length?

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Arizona_Mike

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There seems to be a lot of contradictory claims on line about what it included in the overall length of a rifle.

The Federal Regs (27 U.S.C. 179.11):
the
length of the barrel having an integral
chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall
be determined by measuring the distance
between the muzzle and the face
of the bolt, breech, or breech block
when closed and when the shotgun or
rifle is cocked. The overall length of a
weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is
the distance between the extreme ends
of the weapon measured along a line
parallel to the center line of the bore.
Click to expand...

I have also seen the ATF letter that states the measurement should be done with the stock fully extended.

Wikipedia (for what it's worth) states:
Overall length is measured between the extreme ends of the gun, along a centerline which passes through the middle of the barrel. For rifles fitted with folding or telescoping stocks (such as U.S. Carbine M1A1), US Federal guidelines state that measurement is made with the stock unfolded as intended for use as a rifle; exception is made for rifles with easily detachable shoulder stocks, which shall be measured with shoulder stock detached.
Click to expand...
The footnote from Wikipedia's claim does not discuss this at all.

Is there a source that mentions easily removable stocks? I have done quite a bit of searching and can't find it (other than Wikipedia and people quoting Wikipedia).

Next question: A removable muzzle device does not count toward barrel length but does it count toward OAL?

This ATF publication says something slightly different than the Federal Regs:
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to
measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel
or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric st
eel-seam welding, high-temp
erature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning w
ith the pin head welded over.
Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops
against the bolt or breech-face.
The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attach
ed muzzle device, withdraw
n from the barrel, and
measured.
. . .
The overall length of a firearm is the distance betw
een the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion
of the weapon measured on a line para
llel to the axis of the bore.
Click to expand...
The civilian version of the Tavor being sold in the US with a 16.5" barrel is 26.125" long.

Mike
 
I'm curious about the muzzle break counting towards oal as well. I have a rifle with 18" barrel but oal is just barely over 26. I would love to cut and thread barrel if a muzzle attachment does in fact count towards the total length of rifle. I suppose I could always permanently attach it.
 
32_d3gr33s I'm curious about the muzzle break counting towards oal as well. I have a rifle with 18" barrel but oal is just barely over 26. I would love to cut and thread barrel if a muzzle attachment does in fact count towards the total length of rifle. I suppose I could always permanently attach it.
Click to expand...
If the muzzle device is not permanently attached, it is measured to the end of the bbl.

It is not uncommon for guys to take a 14.5" AR barrel and permanently attach a flash hider or muzzle break to get the bbl length to 16". If its simply a screw on.......you'll need a tax stamp for an SBR.
 
Tom, do you have an authoritive source that this applies to OAL as well as barrel length?

Mike
 
i found this on another forum:

"Removable muzzle devices (flash suppressors, muzzle brakes, barrel extensions, etc.), do not count towards overall length or barrel length measurements. However, permanently affixed attachments are considered part of the barrel.

The acceptable methods for permanently attaching a device of this type to a firearm barrel involve (1) using deep-penetrating, full-fusion, gas or electric steel-seam welds or (2) using high-temperature silver solder exceeding 1100 degrees Fahrenheit. Depending on he dimensions of a particular barrel, it may also be possible to permanently affix a device by drilling a blind hole through the attachment and into the barrel wall. A steel pin that is flush with, or below, the outside diameter of the muzzle attachment is then inserted, and the hole welded closed. Tack-welding is not an approved method for permanently attaching a muzzle device to a firearm barrel.

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
7/18/2011"



"The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. "
 
The Wiki article on this is not something I would follow.

The truth, as with many things defined by the BATFE, is a twisted path.

Overall length for a rifle with a folding or collapsable stock is to be measured with the stock extended. If you look around you will find legally imported underfolder AK's which fold to less than 26 inches in length which is the minimum legal length (under federal law).

However, for a rifle which is made from a firearm that was designed to be a pistol (TC Contender for instance) the overall length is measured with the stock folded or collapsed. A TC Contender with a folding stock needs a barrel long enough for the overall length, when folded, to be over 26 inches. The ATF published a revenue letter which explained this - albiet in vague and opaque language.
 
Arizona_Mike Tom, do you have an authoritive source that this applies to OAL as well as barrel length?
Click to expand...


See page 6 of the NFA Handbook
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/atf-p-5320-8.pdf


Regarding OAL:
The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore.
Click to expand...

Regarding the measurement of barrel length:
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.
Click to expand...
 
Tejicano Loco However, for a rifle which is made from a firearm that was designed to be a pistol (TC Contender for instance) the overall length is measured with the stock folded or collapsed. A TC Contender with a folding stock needs a barrel long enough for the overall length, when folded, to be over 26 inches. The ATF published a revenue letter which explained this - albiet in vague and opaque language.
Click to expand...
Huh?:scrutiny:
Once a pistol has been made into a rifle it falls under the exact same regulations as any other rifle.

There is nothing special about the TC Contender that changes how it is measured when configured as a rifle.

Here is the ATF ruling on "Pistols Configured from Rifles; Rifles Configured from Pistols"
http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
 
If the BATFE has changed their mind on this I guess they could have published another revenue letter to that effect.

Just ask Thompson Center if it is OK to attach a folding stock on a Thompson Contender pistol configured as a rifle - with a barrel which is only 16 inches long. When I asked them about this I was told that I would need a longer barrel to ensure that the folded length was over 26 inches. From that conversation I was directed to an ATF Revenue Letter which explained this.

The link I had to this letter is no longer working and I have tried to find it on-line. Possibly the BATFE did change this - which might explain why that letter does not come up.
 
The point I am referencing predates the Thompson ruling by a few decades. The Revenue Letter was published in the 1970's (1974 IIRC). It is a completely different issue from the issue about converting handguns into rifles and the reverse.

It is just a coincidence that I found out about this in corresponding with Thompson Center. This correspondence took place before the Thompson court case happened - so it could be that the BATFE, as a result of that, changed its decision about the overall length which I reference above. I never heard about that either way.
 
The ATF rule about measuring a rifle's overall length with the stock extended happened a long time ago. That is why you can find AK-type rifles (and M-1 Carbines for that matter) which are shorter than 26 inches when the stock is folded. This was the way overall length was always interpreted - except for rifles made from firearms designed as handguns.

Once again, this rule existed long before the Thompson ruling in 2008.
 
Tejicano Loco The ATF rule about measuring a rifle's overall length with the stock extended happened a long time ago. That is why you can find AK-type rifles (and M-1 Carbines for that matter) which are shorter than 26 inches when the stock is folded. This was the way overall length was always interpreted - except for rifles made from firearms designed as handguns.

Once again, this rule existed long before the Thompson ruling in 2008.
Click to expand...
The 26" OAL requirement for rifles and shotguns dates to the National Firearms Act of 1934. Originally the minimum bbl length was set at 18" for both rifles and shotguns, but when surplus M1 carbines became available for sale ATF changed the minimum bbl length for rifles to 16".

ATF has always measured OAL and barrel length the same way......no matter what someone at TC told you.
 
Tejicano Loco said:
The ATF rule about measuring a rifle's overall length with the stock extended happened a long time ago. That is why you can find AK-type rifles (and M-1 Carbines for that matter) which are shorter than 26 inches when the stock is folded. This was the way overall length was always interpreted - except for rifles made from firearms designed as handguns.

Once again, this rule existed long before the Thompson ruling in 2008.
Click to expand...
United States v. Thompson-Center Arms Company was a 1992 decision and had nothing to do with folding stocks. For many years to ATF fought Pistol-->Rifle-->Pistol and the loosening of constructive possession and insisted the ruling only applied to Thompson. The last part of this decision the ATF officially embraced was the definition of constructive possession clarified in ruling 2011-4: "A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they . . . serve no useful purpose other than to make . . ."

The 2008 letter on OAL was only the clearest and most recent explanation of the OAL policy.

Mike
 
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