Bill of sale info?

Warp said:

Why would I need a recourse?

I'd like to see him prove that I owe him money. THAT is the kind of thing...owing money...that needs to be documented.

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Best case scenario still has you spending a lot of time answering questions and defending your position which would easily be avoided with a BOS.

No, it really doesn't. Perhaps you folks should just allow the government to have the data on all of your guns, knives, and anything else that can be used in a lethal manner; after all, if you sell a baseball bat at a garage sale and the person goes home and kills his wife with it, YOU don't want to be held liable....:banghead:

I like the location "behind the Daly curtain" but it should be Rahm's curtain now. New IL law requires f2f sales not only keep records of buyer/seller FOID but to ascertain through ISP that buyer's foid is currently valid. Also.....supposed to adhere to 24/72 hour waits for delivery of long/handguns.
Before you jump on me for whatever....just telling it how IL respects 2A rights and privacy.

oneounceload said:

No, it really doesn't. Perhaps you folks should just allow the government to have the data on all of your guns, knives, and anything else that can be used in a lethal manner; after all, if you sell a baseball bat at a garage sale and the person goes home and kills his wife with it, YOU don't want to be held liable....:banghead:

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Again, IMO a BOS is not about culpability/liability. A BOS protects the buyer and seller from fraud. That is my concern. Not a mistaken sense of guilt or unfounded fear of legal ramifications because someone outside of my control misused some object I sold.

Also, me having my own BOS is a far cry from government mandated and/or accessible documentation. Any BOS that I may have will never be seen by the government or are they even aware if any exist or not.

If you want a bos, you will have to buy/sell to someone else.

Can anyone here cite a case where a sold or bought gun got them in trouble?
I have read several people on this site who have been contacted after a crime was commited with a previously owned weapon and they all went exactly like the example in post 14.

NoVA Shooter said:

Best case scenario still has you spending a lot of time answering questions and defending your position which would easily be avoided with a BOS.

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You know...I don't recall ever hearing of or seeing a single example of this.

Perhaps you could provide some?

And no, I don't think I would have to spend a lot of time on that. But let's deal with things that have actually happened rather than our own personal conjecture about what we think would or would not happen in a future, hypothetical scenario.

M2 Carbine- Lets say that you purchased that handgun from a gun store. You sold it to the guy who committed the murder and didn't keep any record of the sale whatsoever. and he disposed of the weapon at the crime scene. Those detectives would be investigating you, and in turn your possessions as well as your weapons would all be confiscated.

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Let's see some REAL scenarios where this happened - it hasn't, and is just Internet folk lore. If by chance you were truly asked, you say I sold it to some guy, he had a legal DL, don't remember his name - end of story

Again, IMO a BOS is not about culpability/liability. A BOS protects the buyer and seller from fraud. That is my concern. Not a mistaken sense of guilt or unfounded fear of legal ramifications because someone outside of my control misused some object I sold.

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How would that person be able to find you if he doesn't have your name and address from your BOS? Nothing protects either from fraud - there could be hidden issues, just like a car, so it serves no purpose for what you are stating.

Guys, it isn't anything to do with guns. It's just common sense when buying or selling anything, if you don't want to possibly end up in small claims court when there's a dispute over the sale. It happens all the time. Has nobody ever seen People's Court?

Warp said:

You know...I don't recall ever hearing of or seeing a single example of this.

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Go sit in a small claims court for a day and you'll see plenty examples of this. Disputes of payments and services/goods rendered happen all the time.

Warp said:

And no, I don't think I would have to spend a lot of time on that. But let's deal with things that have actually happened rather than our own personal conjecture about what we think would or would not happen in a future, hypothetical scenario.

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If you have never had this happen to you or anyone you know how do you know how much time it would take to resolve? Or is it ok for you to make a personal conjecture about what we think would or would not happen in a future, hypothetical scenario.

However, on that note, here is my real life example:

Bought a washer/dryer set from in a private sale.
Seller got a better offer a day later ($100 more).
Seller asked for more money.
I refused.
Seller got mad.
Seller sued me claiming the initial payment was only a down payment.
No BOS.

Long story short. I proved my case but it wasn't a sure thing and took a lot more effort than if I just showed a BOS.

Glock19Fan said:

There are plenty of cases where murder suspects claim they sold a gun, traded it off, or had it stolen while being investigated by law enforcement.

It does nothing to help their case and they are still prime suspects. A simple BOS could be thrown together real quick and it wouldn't be anything for a murder suspect to do to try avoid charges. This is why I make it clear in emails and text messages what the intent of the transaction is. Because if you cant PROVE that chain of custody, then you can certainly take the fall for it.

Had they been in closer proximity, then M2 could have been a prime suspect in the case. "I sold it to some guy with a DL in a parking lot" is what almost every detective hears and it will not get you out of anything.

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Why would you be the prime suspect in a murder case?

oneounceload said:

How would that person be able to find you if he doesn't have your name and address from your BOS? Nothing protects either from fraud - there could be hidden issues, just like a car, so it serves no purpose for what you are stating.

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Someone intent on committing fraud can find out who you are without too much trouble. Following you out to your car and getting your license plate or simply looking at your DL when getting proof of residency are two quick examples.

My BOSs have 'AS-IS' on them so if there is some hidden issue, I'm covered.

An example of a fraud would be if a person initiates a sale with you with the sole purpose of calling the police the next day to say his gun was stolen. How can you say that a BOS wouldn't protect the buyer in this case?

My main point is that a decent BOS will have enough information to protect you (at some level) from the other person trying to commit a fraud. A BOS that does not serve this purpose defeats my reason of getting one in the first place. If a BOS simply said "gun sold for $300", I would not accept it.

I live in New York State. I would not ask for anything in writing.
I go to PA for my ammo and gun sales.

I have a BOS for every FTF deal I've done and I wouldn't do it any other way. To each his own, I guess. I am upfront with buyers...they need to have a VA CCW and their Driver's License and to fill out the BOS or else I insist on transferring through a gun store. Unnecessary according to VA law, yes, but I feel much more comfortable with it. I don't need to sell to anyone and they don't need to buy from me. Those are my own personal rules and no one has complained yet. Everyone else is welcome to do as they see fit but I think it's simply a personal preference thing.

Rayzor said:

I live in New York State. I would not ask for anything in writing.
I go to PA for my ammo and gun sales.

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The thing about that is we are talking about face to face transactions between private parties. As a NY resident you can not conduct these types of transactions in PA, lawfully. Correct?

As I mentioned in a previous post, lets say a murder weapon found at a crime scene was purchased by you and you live relatively close. If you don't have a concrete alibi and you cant provide them with some sort of evidence you sold the weapon to someone else then you can quickly become a suspect. A solid way of proving you sold the weapon (text messages, emails, BOS, whatever) can possibly help keep the blame off you and find the real suspect in the case.

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Simply not true as stated by folks who were actually in those situations and merely told the police they sold the gun to someone a while ago, so please provide ACTUAL scenarios where this really happened.

Most dealers I have purchased from did not furnish a bill of sale and some, not a receipt. All my FTF transactions, both directions, have been done without even an exchange of names.

Bill of sale info?

I figure it this way. When it comes to a private transaction the terms and conditions of the transaction are between the buyer and seller. Those terms and conditions must meet local and state laws. That is it and that is all that matters. As long as the seller and the buyer agree to the terms and conditions then the sale is completed.

Now if either party wants terms and conditions that exceed state and local laws like the seller wants a DNA swab of the buyer and the buyer refuses to provide it then they walk away from each other. If the buyer can't provide proof of age or residence the seller refuses the sale and walks away from it. Local and state laws spell out what is required as a minimum. Anything beyond that is purely "nice to have" and again needs agreed upon by both parties.

Everything should be up front before the parties ever meet for the transaction or there is no sense on even meeting. Both parties either agree or disagree before the meeting ever takes place. It doesn't get any simpler.

Just My Take....
Ron

Blackbeard said:

What a bunch of paranoid nuts in this thread.

Suppose you buy a gun from a guy for $300 and he later claims you still owe him $200 more -- the $300 was just a down payment. Suppose he reports it stolen if you won't pay?

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Filling a false police report is a serious crime. For $200 you're not going to get?

I don't do a bill of sale. You can look at my CCW card, I'd like to see yours. Then we trade my stuff for yours. End of the deal. Expecting otherwise will absolutely kill the deal with me.
There's a fella on the Ohio CCW forums that expects a detailed bill of sale with lots of personal info recorded. That is right out. Never doing a deal with that fella.

evan price said:

I don't do a bill of sale. You can look at my CCW card, I'd like to see yours. Then we trade my stuff for yours. End of the deal. Expecting otherwise will absolutely kill the deal with me.
There's a fella on the Ohio CCW forums that expects a detailed bill of sale with lots of personal info recorded. That is right out. Never doing a deal with that fella.

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He has every right to expect whatever he chooses, hey even a DNA swab. However, he won't be doing any business with me anytime soon, like ever! Now if he finds someone who meets his demands then fine, I wish them both the best in their transaction.

Ron

Maybe, I am just sheltered here in Arkansas, but I have never asked for nor have I asked for identification. All of my private transactions usually begin with a friendly greeting, then we shoot the breeze while looking at the gun. It all ends with a handshake and usually exchange of money.