S&W and Ruger give up on selling semis in California

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mister_murphy said:
I tend to agree with you in that the government sales, directly or indirectly, are of large importance to the larger firearm companies. Historically S&W and Colt's had the majority of the market, and then when autoloaders came common, the market share slid down. It would be important for at least S&W to try to reclaim part of this if it is possible for them financially, as it is known to assist drive retail sales.

As to the one company you mentioned making a statement. These companies cant have it both ways. I forget the name of the place that has the border patrol shotgun contract, but they made a statement similar about not selling to California, but yet they evidently keep selling to the feds, which last I checked, border patrol worked California as well. Plus there is the surplus property distribution system, so by selling to the feds, the gun may later be transferred to a state or local agency in a restricted state. I also didn't see the same companies stop selling to the feds during the 94 AWB either. Where were they then? Don't want to sell to LE in ban states? Cut the feds and military off as well.
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Publicly held corporations have a duty to make profits for their shareholders. You won't see them taking any moral stances. Especially if those stances hurt the bottom line. Even large privately held corporations won't hurt the bottom line much.
Like I said, see if FN is willing to stop sales of machine guns unless congress acts to repeal the NFA or other related legislation.
$10 says they laugh you out the door.
 
"Look at what they are trying to do to Lead, look under the hood of your car someday and ask how much of that stuff is due to California?"

This. The conventional wisdumb "as California goes, so goes the nation" only follows if we actually follow suit. If we and industry resist their dumb pressures and dictates, they become isolated rather than influential. I weep for Kali's, because being isolated sucks, but it is important for the rest of the country that they be treated as lepers for a little while.

Perhaps as the discrepancy between Californians and rest of the nation grows ever more stark, the larger masses will finally awaken to what their regime truly is. Or, they will embrace their perceived superiority entirely, and leave the rest of us alone for a change. Either way suits the other 49 just fine (no, this isn't a "slippery slope;" California is quite different from other states in a lot of ways, from the culture of their influential cities, to the way they treat marginalized groups outside them)

For S&W and Ruger to microstamp their guns serves only to legitimize yet another infringement. I'm glad the scales have shifted enough that their success as companies no longer hinges on the proclamations of fevered radicals in the far corner of the nation.

TCB
 
Clean97GTI said:
It isn't just the new guns. It's parts and service after the fact. Huge portions of the S&W website are dedicated to the LE and Military departments of these companies. S&W doesn't thrive off single gun sales. They sell to other distributors who then push the guns out to the rest of us and in large numbers to LEA and Mil/Gov sales.
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From S&W's most recent annual report (SEC Form 10-K):

We remain dependent on the sale of our firearm products in the sporting goods distribution channel.

We manufacture a wide array of handguns, modern sporting rifles, hunting rifles, black powder firearms, handcuffs, and firearm-related products and accessories for sale to a wide variety of customers, including gun enthusiasts, collectors, hunters, sportsmen, competitive shooters, individuals desiring home and personal protection, law enforcement agencies and officers, and military agencies in the United States and throughout the world. We have made substantial efforts during the last several years to increase our sales to law enforcement and military agencies in the United States and throughout the world. Our efforts to increase firearms sales to law enforcement agencies has been successful to date with a number of agencies in the United States and agencies abroad selecting or approving for carry our firearms. We have not, however, yet secured any major contracts to supply firearms to any large domestic military agencies. Although we believe that we now are able to offer a broad array of competitive products to the military, we cannot predict whether or when we will be able to secure any major military supply contracts. As a result, approximately 88.0% of our net firearm sales remain in the sporting goods distribution channel.
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In a few years, after micromarking, the LEO turn ins could bring some decent profits if allowed to sell to Californians. If Ruger & S&W go nationwide with the MM, these turn ins could be real collector items in free states.

If MM becomes common, I'll be the first to state I will happily use some wet/dry sandpaper and make them useless in any firearm I may buy so marked.

I admit I have kept the included fired shell casings that have come with some guns, mainly Ruger. My Sig Saurs don't have them. I like to keep my guns and whatever came with them complete. This does not include MM.

Looking forward to future illumination from Ruger & S&W, etc.
 
gc70 said:
Originally Posted by Clean97GTI
It isn't just the new guns. It's parts and service after the fact. Huge portions of the S&W website are dedicated to the LE and Military departments of these companies. S&W doesn't thrive off single gun sales. They sell to other distributors who then push the guns out to the rest of us and in large numbers to LEA and Mil/Gov sales.
Click to expand...

From S&W's most recent annual report (SEC Form 10-K):


Quote:
We remain dependent on the sale of our firearm products in the sporting goods distribution channel.

We manufacture a wide array of handguns, modern sporting rifles, hunting rifles, black powder firearms, handcuffs, and firearm-related products and accessories for sale to a wide variety of customers, including gun enthusiasts, collectors, hunters, sportsmen, competitive shooters, individuals desiring home and personal protection, law enforcement agencies and officers, and military agencies in the United States and throughout the world. We have made substantial efforts during the last several years to increase our sales to law enforcement and military agencies in the United States and throughout the world. Our efforts to increase firearms sales to law enforcement agencies has been successful to date with a number of agencies in the United States and agencies abroad selecting or approving for carry our firearms. We have not, however, yet secured any major contracts to supply firearms to any large domestic military agencies. Although we believe that we now are able to offer a broad array of competitive products to the military, we cannot predict whether or when we will be able to secure any major military supply contracts. As a result, approximately 88.0% of our net firearm sales remain in the sporting goods distribution channel.
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Good find GC70.

For Clean97GTI to think that S&W sales to Govt/military/LEA is the bread and butter is very misguided when its really only 12% of their sales #.

S&W, Ruger, and others need CA as CA is the 1st(or maybe 2nd) in firearms the country.


I'm sure they have already run through the scenario of justifying to the shareholders that this strategy is the best option to be able to keep selling into the biggest firearms market in the US into the long term future. IOW: Short term pain for long term gain.
 
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barnbwt said:
"Look at what they are trying to do to Lead, look under the hood of your car someday and ask how much of that stuff is due to California?"

This. The conventional wisdumb "as California goes, so goes the nation" only follows if we actually follow suit. If we and industry resist their dumb pressures and dictates, they become isolated rather than influential. I weep for Kali's, because being isolated sucks, but it is important for the rest of the country that they be treated as lepers for a little while.

Perhaps as the discrepancy between Californians and rest of the nation grows ever more stark, the larger masses will finally awaken to what their regime truly is. Or, they will embrace their perceived superiority entirely, and leave the rest of us alone for a change. Either way suits the other 49 just fine (no, this isn't a "slippery slope;" California is quite different from other states in a lot of ways, from the culture of their influential cities, to the way they treat marginalized groups outside them)

For S&W and Ruger to microstamp their guns serves only to legitimize yet another infringement. I'm glad the scales have shifted enough that their success as companies no longer hinges on the proclamations of fevered radicals in the far corner of the nation.

TCB
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I don't think you understand how this is working. Here in California, the liberals import the dregs of society. They then get fed up with the crime, the taxes, and so forth, and move to other states, taking their ideology with them, oblivious to the fact that they are creating their own hells.

Look at Colorado. Do you really think that Coloradans just turned liberal over the past decade? No, it's the people from California moving in and destroying the state. Look at what is happening to Virginia. That's the people moving out of NYC.

If you want to stop this from happening to your state, it needs to stop everywhere in the country. You can't stop people from moving to your state, you need to focus on the whole country.
 
ChaoSS,

I think the "people moving" is a way over blown topic that's easy to point a finger at.

Think about it. 200k-300k Californians move out every year. They primarily go to TX, AZ, CO, NV, WA, and Oregon. Just using simple math, roughly 50k Californians end up in each of those states every year.

But for fun, lets just say its 75k each. Now lets assume 33% of the 75k are not anti gun. That's should be a fair assumption so now were' back to 50k California anti's moving into CO. And that's still a high estimate.


Do you really think 50k Californians moving into Colorado with a 5.1 million population is going to change Colorado's values?

I don't think so.

And if were true.... then why isn't CA becoming more conservative with all of the people moving into the state from TX, AZ etc. etc.


People like to blame some one else.

CA and NY are an easier target instead of them looking inwards at themselves.


ETA: TX had almost 400k births in 2010. Roughly only 75k Californians moved there. Their population is around 25 million.

How in the heck does anyone legitimately think those 75k Californians are making the slightest bit of cultural change in TX?!?!?!?
 
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most other anti-gun states will follow suit.
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If CA spreads their microstamping requirement to long guns, and more states follow the CA example, it will be a self-defeating action. The more states that require microstamping, the smaller the market for non-microstamped guns and the larger the potential market for stamped guns. The larger the market, the greate the economy of scale. Cost of implementing microstamping by the manufacturers will become affordable as the fixed cosed are spread across more units. Instead of $12 a gun, it may be only $1.20 qun and eventually 12cents a gun. The antis will wake up one morning and find themselves awash in microstamped guns when they thoght they had stamped them out.
 
"How in the heck does anyone legitimately think those 75k Californians are making the slightest bit of cultural change in TX?!?!?!?"

Money. Lot's of these transplants tend to have money, compared to the new arrivals in the maternity wards (which just suck up money :D). And the stereotype of pompous city dwellers proselytizing to the ignorant savages in the wilds does exist for a reason.

TCB
 
JRH6856 said:
If CA spreads their microstamping requirement to long guns, and more states follow the CA example, it will be a self-defeating action. The more states that require microstamping, the smaller the market for non-microstamped guns and the larger the potential market for stamped guns. The larger the market, the greate the economy of scale. Cost of implementing microstamping by the manufacturers will become affordable as the fixed cosed are spread across more units. Instead of $12 a gun, it may be only $1.20 qun and eventually 12cents a gun. The antis will wake up one morning and find themselves awash in microstamped guns when they thoght they had stamped them out.
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I could never see an advance in complication getting less expensive to manage. Microstamping is just "a foot in the door" to more creative ways of making life difficult for legal gun owners. In a few years there will be have to be inspections to make sure the microstamp is still intact. Plus there will be globs of data to keep track of as who has what microstamps. Plus if your microstamp’ed gun had been stolen and a brass casing from it show from it show up and a crime scene, you will go from former gun owner to suspect. [ All of your registered guns would have been seized. ] And gunsmiths will need to be CA-certified to service a microstamp'ed gun.

chuck
 
gym said:
All the firearms company's should refuse to sell to any state that refuses it's citizens the rights given to them by our Founding Fathers.
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The Founding Fathers didn't "give" the right to self defense (through guns) they simply recognized the pre-existing inherent right bestowed upon us by our Creator.

This is important, because if man gave us something, then surely man can take it away.
 
barnbwt said:
"How in the heck does anyone legitimately think those 75k Californians are making the slightest bit of cultural change in TX?!?!?!?"

Money. Lot's of these transplants tend to have money, compared to the new arrivals in the maternity wards (which just suck up money :D). And the stereotype of pompous city dwellers proselytizing to the ignorant savages in the wilds does exist for a reason.

TCB
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But the # of Californians moving into TX represents .3% (as in .003) of TX's population.

TX economy is about $1.2 TRILLION

If those 75000 Californians brought $10 million dollars ea. ($750 million total) and spent every last cent in the 1st year, that would represent only .6% (.006) of TX's economy.

When looking at the #'s, it just doesn't make sense that the transplants can possibly make much difference.... if any at all.
 
David E said:
The Founding Fathers didn't "give" the right to self defense (through guns) they simply recognized the pre-existing inherent right bestowed upon us by our Creator.
...
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But using this argument gives a government that does not recognize a Creator grounds to call the whole Bill of Rights null and void.

chuck
 
First of all, Ruger and S&W aren't pulling out of CA entirely. Revolvers aren't subject to the law, and they make plenty of CA compliant revolvers.
 
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Danez71 said:
If those 75000 Californians brought $10 million dollars ea. ($750 million total) and spent every last cent in the 1st year, that would represent only .6% (.006) of TX's economy.
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$10 million X 75 = $750 million
$10 million X 75 thousand = $750 billion
 
If those 75000 Californians brought $10 million dollars ea. ($750 million total) and spent every last cent in the 1st year, that would represent only .6% (.006) of TX's economy.

When looking at the #'s, it just doesn't make sense that the transplants can possibly make much difference.... if any at all.
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It depends on where they spend that money. That's a lot of political advertising and campaign contributions.
 
The problem with micro-stamping isn't the defaced firing pins, but the necessary gun registration to make the scheme work in the first place.
 
As I understand it, it's like telling car makers all new California cars must be Bio-electric - they must run an electric motor on pig poop to a certain efficiency standard.

"What's the efficiency standard?" the car makers ask.

"It hasn't been established yet," the anti-car people answer gleefully.

"Ok.....what if we make some, but then doesn't meet the arbitrary efficiency standard that comes out a year later?"

"Oh, in that case, all Bio-electric cars must be recalled for upgrades."

"Does this technology even exist?" The car makers inquire.

"What?! Of course! Billy here made a scale model in his garage that almost worked....uh, wait, we mean, William Snotface Industries developed the technology to an unprecedented level of function!"

The gunmakers are being asked to utilize a non-existent technology to meet an unspecified standard.

On top of that, even if it did work, gun registration will be achieved, since they need to know who what gun that makes a certain mark.
.
 
steelerdude99 said:
But using this argument gives a government that does not recognize a Creator grounds to call the whole Bill of Rights null and void.

chuck
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The Founding Fathers believed in God, but that wasn't my whole point.

It's critical to realize that MAN didn't instill in us the desire for self preservation and freedom. MAN cannot take those away. Anyone that wants to take away my means of protecting me and my family is my sworn enemy. I don't care if he is "refreshingly brash" or can "take it to the Democrats." (Chris Christie) If he wants my guns, and he does, he is my enemy.

Those in power don't care about anything but staying in power, God or Constitution be damned. And it is when "they" truly take over that I'll be glad I have my gun.
 
gc70 said:
$10 million X 75 = $750 million
$10 million X 75 thousand = $750 billion
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Whoops! Thanks for that. I had pre thought out the math based on $100k/yr but somehow lost a bunch of Zeros when dividing.



The gunmakers are being asked to utilize a non-existent technology to meet an unspecified standard.

On top of that, even if it did work, gun registration will be achieved, since they need to know who what gun that makes a certain mark.
Click to expand...


The technology does exist. They even had a dog and pony show demonstrating that it worked.... but they only shot a few rounds; no long term testing.

For those that are raising the 'registration' flag, CA has had handgun registration for many decades.

Also, The firing pin is to have the handguns serial # on it so the shell case would have the #; not a unique mark. Even if CA didn't have registration, the ATF already has the serial# and who bought it originally.



Regardless, say LEO find shells at the scene and has the guns serial# on them as designed. It doesn't prove anything.

Its doesn't even prove that the original buyer or current owner pulled the trigger.

It also doesn't prove that the lead bullet in the dead person came from those shells.

They'd prove that by ballistics test of the lead bullet vs the barrel like they've been doing for decades.


Its a law that is designed to oppress gun sales in CA.
 
They may have demonstrated a prototype of the "technology," but that's a far cry from making it a working reality.

And again, to what standard? That's never been specified
 
David E said:
The Founding Fathers believed in God, but that wasn't my whole point.

It's critical to realize that MAN didn't instill in us the desire for self preservation and freedom. MAN cannot take those away. Anyone that wants to take away my means of protecting me and my family is my sworn enemy. I don't care if he is "refreshingly brash" or can "take it to the Democrats." (Chris Christie) If he wants my guns, and he does, he is my enemy.

Those in power don't care about anything but staying in power, God or Constitution be damned. And it is when "they" truly take over that I'll be glad I have my gun.
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I'm not a religious man anymore... I'm an agnostic. Not all of our founding fathers were religious either. But I always found the following scripture interesting...

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That’s enough!” he replied.

—Gospel of Luke 22:36-38, NIV
 
danez71 said:
ChaoSS,

I think the "people moving" is a way over blown topic that's easy to point a finger at.

Think about it. 200k-300k Californians move out every year. They primarily go to TX, AZ, CO, NV, WA, and Oregon. Just using simple math, roughly 50k Californians end up in each of those states every year.

But for fun, lets just say its 75k each. Now lets assume 33% of the 75k are not anti gun. That's should be a fair assumption so now were' back to 50k California anti's moving into CO. And that's still a high estimate.


Do you really think 50k Californians moving into Colorado with a 5.1 million population is going to change Colorado's values?

I don't think so.

And if were true.... then why isn't CA becoming more conservative with all of the people moving into the state from TX, AZ etc. etc.


People like to blame some one else.

CA and NY are an easier target instead of them looking inwards at themselves.


ETA: TX had almost 400k births in 2010. Roughly only 75k Californians moved there. Their population is around 25 million.

How in the heck does anyone legitimately think those 75k Californians are making the slightest bit of cultural change in TX?!?!?!?
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50,000 people per year is 500,000 over a decade. That's ten percent of your 5 million in Colorado. Yeah, that's a massive difference.


A decade ago I lived in Colorado. I can see something like marijuana legalization going through, but not the gun laws. The difference between then and now is the demographics. People have moved in, and have changed the state.


Do you really think that Californians changed so much from the 60s? This state wasn't always like this. It's the people who have moved into this state who have changed it.


Let the wrong people into your house, don't be surprised when the house rules get changed.


So yes, look inside to see the problem, but the problem isn't people changing, it's lax rules that allow the makeup of your population to change, changing the social values and eventually, the laws.
 
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