Should You Draw ONLY IF your going to fire?

rc, I have to strongly disagree about clearing your own house with the safety off. So do my Glock and XD9.

I have had to clear my house in the middle of the night after a loud slam woke me from a deep sleep. I verified that my girl was in the bed with me and my daughter to young to leave her crib on her own. I cleared the first floor, safety nonexistent and the gun at low & ready. If there was another human in my house there would be a problem. Luckily for me I am a big guy and most people choose to run from me rather than at me.

Could a family member/friend (access to key) visit your house a day early, or unexpected? Most people seem to assume that everything with family always goes according to a plan, or that otherwise they will call before they arrive.

A guy down south killed his daughter when she crept down a dark hallway to her room.
She quietly entered the home on a night when she was not expected, and did not want to wake her parents, or alarm them. He shot into the dark, and his daughter died in his arms.

Another guy assumed that his fiance would not go into the garage late at night without his awareness (such guys operate a Command Post?).
He stopped her with a bullet-dark hallway-when the guy assumed that the person entering from the garage was a dangerous intruder.

vamo said:

I would say don't draw unless you are WILLING to fire. Once drawn theres a lot of good reasons to not shoot, but leave the gun in the holster if its a situation in which you would be unwilling to fire.

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Agreed.

It's perfectly fine to never draw unless the need to fire is present, and that's probably a very wise stance; but if the act of drawing is a commitment to firing, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

A guy down south killed his daughter when she crept down a dark hallway to her room.
She quietly entered the home on a night when she was not expected, and did not want to wake her parents, or alarm them. He shot into the dark, and his daughter died in his arms.

Another guy assumed that his fiance would not go into the garage late at night without his awareness (such guys operate a Command Post?).
He stopped her with a bullet-dark hallway-when the guy assumed that the person entering from the garage was a dangerous intruder.

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Assumptions are always a bad idea - but even worse when you have a firearm in your hands.

Deadly force...

...is only warranted if confronted with deadly force. Deploying a firearm is actually "brandishing" which can get you in trouble.
Obviously, avoiding confrontation at all cost, including retreating. The stand your ground issue is totally stupid-there should be any type of effort to disengage and especially not invite or challenge a potentially dangerous situation.
If someone enters your home, and takes a computer, and you catch the person in the act, and you're armed-if after telling the person to drop to the ground, he instead drops your computer and runs to the front door YOU CANNOT SHOOT THAT PERSON. The perp did not deploy a deadly weapon, the perp disengaged and ran out of the house. Your only action is to call 911.
I paid strict attention to the legal portion in my CPL class (MI).
The key is situational awareness, avoid bad areas, avoid confrontation, make all attempt to disengage, leave a potentially dangerous situation, and only use your firearm if threatened with deadly force or rape. Period.

If I feel my life is in danger I'm going to draw my gun. If sometime between the point of drawing and shooting the aggressor stops his aggression, I will not take the shot.

If someone breaks into my house they are shot.

If for some unlikely reason I do not shoot them, they had better buy a Lottery ticket because it is their lucky day.

IMO you should not draw unless you would be justified in firing. In many places doing so can open you to charges of brandishing or even assault.

That does not mean you have to fire once you draw if the threat de-escalates due to the presence of the gun.

Here is an interesting viewpoint I read in another forum,,,

Here is an interesting viewpoint I read in another forum.

Click here please,,,

I'm not saying I agree with his entire article,,,
But I am in agreement with his "when to draw" section.

Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or whatever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough ***********!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

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Basically he's saying that waiting until the last moment to draw could be suicidal,,,
I'm not taking what this BurnedOutLEO is saying as the purest gospel,,,
But I see his point and am inclined to follow that methodology.

I personally have no problem with drawing my pistol when I feel it's prudent,,,
Just because I have it drawn doesn't mean I have to shoot,,,
Or even have it pointed at the suspicious person.

Bird in hand and all that stuff,,,

Aarond

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My $.02:

In my experience, clearing your house (for whatever reason you decide to do so) with the safety off has very little to do with shooting the wrong person inadvertently.

Your finger on the trigger is what causes your firearm to fire. So first things first, keep your darn finger off the trigger until you're ready to engage your threat/target.

Secondly, the reason the wrong person is shot, i.e. at home and/or in the dark, is due to human error in properly identifying the target prior to engaging it. The best way to correct human error is to get training.

There are many actions people attribute to "accidental" when in reality it's their own fault for lack of training, schooling, or just plain reading.

And no, watching the latest SWAT or Mission Impossible movie doesn't count. Neither does watching Cops or DEA or what have you.

As for drawing your weapon: 1) Always know the laws you must live by (especially regarding drawing your firearm). Why? If it's seen by anyone, you're gonna have some legal 'splaining to do. 2) Make the decisions you and your family can live with ahead of time, 3) When you draw, you draw to engage and stop the threat. Make sure you use every millisecond you have prior to trigger squeeze to continuously assess your situation as it develops. Stop yourself when the threat cease to be a one, be it by your hand or by their choice.

M2 Carbine said:

If someone breaks into my house they are shot.

If for some unlikely reason I do not shoot them, they had better buy a Lottery ticket because it is their lucky day.

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The way Castle Doctrine reads here, if someone breaks into your house, it is reasonable to suspect that they are there to harm you and you have the right to shoot them. That does not mean I would. Same goes for drawing my weapon. I'm not going to kill someone because they were drunk or were looking to steal my computer. I'm not going to kill someone because anger escalated into something where they thought they they needed to display physical violence. Pushing/shoving/takin' a punch ain't a real threat on my life. But if I feel a threat, I will draw my firearm and if given the chance, I will allow the threat to dissipate. If it doesn't, I will use my weapon. Time, distance and the scenario will determine a lot. Part of SD/HD is awareness. Part of awareness is assessing the situation. As an example, I believe George Zimmerman had every legal right to do what he did....but because I wasn't there, I am not sure he HAD to do it.

rcmodel said:

Not drawing, or drawing and firing or not firing is fine, depending on the situation.

Clearing a house with the safety OFf is simply NOT fine, under ANY circumstances.

It takes less time to flick a safety off after the decision to fire is made then it takes an involuntary muscle twitch to kill someone you had no business of shooting, or killing!

rc

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What is this 'safety' you speak of?

It takes less time to flick a safety off after the decision to fire is made then it takes an involuntary muscle twitch to kill someone you had no business of shooting, or killing!

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First, if someone is in my house and my firearm is in my hands, then I already have a resonable fear of death or great bodily harm, so any shooting would be justified.

Second, keep yours finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. This will alleviate your 'interesting' problem with involuntary muscle twitches.

It seemd we have two different situations we are talking about here. Someone in your house is completely different than being out and about and carrying. In one's own house "brandishing" doesn't come into play. I can show the intruder the barrel of my revolver and shotty at the same time if I please. (obviously I'm being over dramatic, but it proves my point). With Castle Doctrine I can automatically assume ill will of the intruder, still doesn't mean I'm going to shoot without identifying the perp and hopefully they just scoot away once they see what they are up against.

Out in public I won't draw unless I am convinced I have no other "outs" especially because brandishing does come into play. Again, the assailant may scram once he see's me draw (best case scenario) but I would have every intention of shooting at that point. Whether shots are fired really depends on the perps actions withing that second or two after I draw.

...is only warranted if confronted with deadly force. Deploying a firearm is actually "brandishing" which can get you in trouble.

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As a cop, my use of force continuum is a little different; on-duty or off.

I strongly believe there is often a very distinct difference between "legal behavior" and "moral behavior".

I live in a state that allows open carry on my property... not that this has anything to do with carrying within my own home walls. My state also allows use of deadly force to protect property.

If I think an intruder is in my home then my firearm will be at low-ready with the safety off and finger off the trigger. I never panic and nothings scares me... at least not for the last 15-20 years anyway... so I'm not likely to squeeze off a round by mistake. BTW, I live alone.

If the need to save my own life or the life of others necessitated the killing of another human being then so-be-it. If it was a matter of material things (on my own property) then I'd demand they put whatever the thing is down. If they refuse then I'd fire a warning shot repeating the demand. If they decide to leave with the item(s) then I'd probably "consider" shooting the item they're carrying to destroy it so it's no longer any good to them... depends on the size of the item and how it's carried. If I hurt the intruder by error then I'd surely feel bad about it but, IMHO, they'd deserve it.

Off property is a completely different scenario, of course. I'd draw if I thought I or others are in imminent danger but wouldn't fire unless absolutely necessary.

Pushing/shoving/takin' a punch ain't a real threat on my life.

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Pushing or shoving? Sorta depends on what I am being pushed or shoved into. Out a second floor window or into a fire is something I'd rather avoid. Taking a punch? Not knowing how hard the other guy can hit makes that a threat of bodily harm. If I am armed, it could give him access to my weapon and that is something I'm inclined to try to prevent.

Bert Retta said:

Should You Draw ONLY IF your going to fire?


I was in a discussion today with a couple of Friends who EDC ,and they were saying They would not draw their firearm unless it was to the point they had to fire.What about drawing as a Deterrent,I do not believe that should be a Option,has anyone ever drawn and the drawing itself was all that was needed to stop a threat? I personally would not draw myself unless it was to Fire.Is that the proper mindset?

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Sure! As long as you are as fast as Bill Jordan.

But for us mere mortals it pays to do otherwise if the situation dictates.

Deaf

JRH6856 said:

Pushing or shoving? Sorta depends on what I am being pushed or shoved into. Out a second floor window or into a fire is something I'd rather avoid. Taking a punch? Not knowing how hard the other guy can hit makes that a threat of bodily harm.

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I reffed Youth Hockey for many years. Can't count on both hands the number of times I had dads waitin' for me out in the parkin' lot after a game, only to be pushed, grabbed, shoved around and occasionally have a punch thrown at me. Never figured it was worth shootin' them over. As I said, part of SD is awareness and part of awareness is assessing the situation. There probably was cause to have charges pressed against one or two of those folks. Never thought it was worth it. Kinda came with the job.

Had a guy approach me at a boat landing in the U.P. of Michigan last summer. Had my 637 on me when he grabbed me by my shirt and accused me of intentionally cuttin' him off on the water the day before. He threatened to kick the ship outta me until I was able to convince him I wasn't even on the water the day before. Never even crossed my mind to pull my weapon.

That was the whole point of my post. Just cause someone gets in your face, pushes you around, or breaks into your house, it might not be worth killin' 'em over. It was made in response to the blanket statement "If someone breaks into my house they are shot."

Bert Retta said:

Should You Draw ONLY IF your going to fire?
has anyone ever drawn and the drawing itself was all that was needed to stop a threat?

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I don't draw (or POINT the firearm at someone) unless I'm prepared to fire.

The only time I've drawn a firearm in self defense, I didn't have to point the firearm at the person, or shoot them. They stopped in their tracks - frozen - the moment the gun was exposed.

(I was backing up from the counter at the time the person was trying to come over it; the gun was under the counter.)

They fled, and actually went to the police station and filed a complaint; detectives came to my shop, I was cleared. End of story. Everyone in the store saw what happened.

Angry guy was going to beat up an employee, no physical contact was made, no charges filed, no one died, everyone went on to live another day.

Bert Retta said:

Should You Draw ONLY IF your going to fire?


I was in a discussion today with a couple of Friends who EDC ,and they were saying They would not draw their firearm unless it was to the point they had to fire.What about drawing as a Deterrent,I do not believe that should be a Option,has anyone ever drawn and the drawing itself was all that was needed to stop a threat? I personally would not draw myself unless it was to Fire.Is that the proper mindset?

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Your friends need done training.

As has been said, there are good reasons to draw without firing. (House clearing, covertly, etc)

The guideline should be: "Never draw your gun unless you're willing to shoot." Things can quickly change so that firing a round is not needed or desired.

They would not draw their firearm unless it was to the point they had to fire

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If the situation is to that point, chances are they will be dead before they draw and get off the first shot.

One drill I do with people I teach to shoot is,
they are in their home and I am the bad guy. Pointed finger and "bang" is our gun.

I tell them, when you see me, do whatever you are going to do. I may be in the bedroom, or most anywhere else when they confront me.

I never fail to "kill' them multiple times because they want to talk to me or pause for a second or two, giving me that time to shoot them, several times.

Even with my back to them it's easy to shoot them as I start to turn to face them.

One woman, after I "shot" her four different times, said' "You aren't being fair".

People want to talk or see how things go before they get ready to shoot.
Most everyone does this.
I tell them, I'm not interested in what you have to say, I'm interested in shooting you before you shoot me, so shut the hell up and defend yourself before I shoot you again.

M2 Carbine said:

I tell them, I'm not interested in what you have to say, I'm interested in shooting you before you shoot me, so shut the hell up and defend yourself before I shoot you again.

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Quote of the day.

B-B-B-B-but wait, I haven't drawn yet!!!

I'M GETTING READY!!!!

RC,

If you mean keeping your finger off the trigger I agree. Otherwise their are gun designs that are safe to handle with the manual safety off.

M2 Carbine,

With a blanket statement like you made woe be you if you use deadly force.

Me? I'm a coward. I have a yellow streak down my back a mile wide. I am going to do everything possible to back out of trouble. Break into my home? Heck that is what homeowners insurance is for (and a good way to get new stuff with replacement value insurance). On the street? Where the heck did I park my car? Lord forbid if I do ever have to use deadly force I want to be able to show to the Police and a Jury that I was the victim trying to retreat from the attack.

The way I see it being a coward is a lot cheaper than a defense attorney. And shooting your mouth off on public forums can cause you all sorts of legal problems.

Only draw if you are 100% willing to shoot.

Not the wisest thing to only draw when you're going to fire. Situations change quickly. There are times where you want to draw before the situation gets out of control to the point where you can't draw.