Are AR barrels sold with receiver extentions always properly headspaced?

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Checking headspace with a factory round is guessing, and relies on the round being right, just like not checking it at all and relying on the maker to do it right.

Sooner or later, it will bite someone. The safe reliable answer is cheap. Or you hope yours is one of the 99% they got right.
 
Check your head space with a set of GO/ NOGO gauges. Or buy your barrel from a vendor that supplies a bolt with the proper head space. White Oak Armament, and others offer this as an option with their barrels.
 
Just in case anyone is wondering how to use these gauges (I am new to ARs but not to building rifles in general): A new chamber should allow the Go gauge to close and the No Go gauge should not be able to close. A gun is considered safe as long as the Field gauge cannot close. If the field gauge can close, the gun should be taken out of service and repaired. Testing should be done using finger pressure with a stripped bolt. I've never done this on an AR (yet). I'm not sure human fingers can get sufficient purchase on a stripped AR bolt. Perhaps the whole carrier should be used.

Mike
 
Headspacing, as I understand it, has a few purposes, not all of them safety related;

1) When assembling a rifle, to ensure factory ammo will fit

This is the one most closely associated with safety, but it's importance (and consequences, especially) are a bit overblown on forums. The primary goal is to make sure common ammo will fit, so it doesn't need custom sizing for good function. Too tight, and the action jams or won't lock, too loose, and the poorly secured case causes all sorts of issues. Issues like extractor damage, excessive brass wear, and in extreme cases, case head separation. When worrying about the last one, do remember that high pressure delayed/straight blowback designs like the five-seven and G3 allow the bolt to move quite a bit (by micrometer standards) while the case is pressurized, and the arrangement is perfectly safe within reasonable limits. The case whose neck you bump back and crimp repeatedly isn't the wet tissue bag you think it is (nor a blown-glass light bulb). If the bolt closes, and the round doesn't rattle between the stripped bolt face and chamber, it's unlikely things will turn out uglier than you knocking back shoulders a bit more than you should really have to (slight exaggeration here, but not by much)

2) When inspecting a rifle, to monitor bolt set back

This is the one that is actually the most critical to safety where it can bite you. As a new rifle wears in, the mating/bearing surfaces wear and polish, and the bolt opens up a little. No big deal. Over the years, the rifle has a squib load or two, some hot handloads, and a goober who shot it full of water a few times as a misguided "torture test." Now the bolt measures a little bit longer, but not because of wear. Because the mating surfaces have actually deformed under excessive load, stretching the action, peening the lug faces, and bending the lug attachments. Depending on severity, it's something to keep in mind, but still not worrisome. If after another group of rounds, the head space continues to grow, now you have seriously bad trouble on the horizon; the overpressure damage is so great the action is unable to maintain its structural integrity at working load levels, and is in the midst of failing by fatigue mechanisms (micro cracking). That's when the gun becomes a wall-hanger or demands service.

3) To chase the illusive mayfly of "Accuracy"

As with all things pertaining to precision shooting, the more consistent you can be in all things, the better you can be. Knowing exactly where the headspace sits enables you to size your brass for the perfect consistent fit, and eliminate another of the extremely long list of variables in the equation.

In the interest of morbid curiosity, did any of the famous gun writers ever do an experiment in which they gradually deepened or widened the chamber while firing spec ammo to see just how bad, for example, an M1 Garand had to be before it would reliably rupture cases? For some reason I'm thinking this was done with 1903's by someone (Hatcher?) and that a fairly shocking amount of room was needed to pop the case (like .1" or something :what:)

TCB
 
Checking headspace with a factory round is guessing, and relies on the round being right, just like not checking it at all and relying on the maker to do it right.

Sooner or later, it will bite someone. The safe reliable answer is cheap. Or you hope yours is one of the 99% they got right.

...and relying on the headspace gauge maker getting it right as well. They don't always. If the ammo was that far out of spec, it would be a problem when you went to go shoot it.

Not saying folks shouldn't check, but how much of a problem is headspacing on ARs?

BSW scores again!

These are the ones we all should have.

Not to pick on BSW (because I'm not) but how will you check to ensure you don't have a short chamber with a field gauge?
 
...and relying on the headspace gauge maker getting it right as well. They don't always. If the ammo was that far out of spec, it would be a problem when you went to go shoot it.
If it doesn't pass, you've got some investigating to do. Yes, there is some chance the rifle is OK and the gauge is off; the point is you can be sure that something is wrong.

To pass when the gauge is wrong requires both the chamber and the gauge be off in the same direction -- that's extremely unlikely.
 
"Checking headspace with a factory round is guessing, and relies on the round being right, just like not checking it at all and relying on the maker to do it right.

Sooner or later, it will bite someone. The safe reliable answer is cheap. Or you hope yours is one of the 99% they got right."

Technically, you'd rather the gun be headspaced to the ammo, rather than some arbitrary guage. If the ammo you intend to use is consistently under or oversized, the guage doesn't get you where you need to be. Fortunately, standards in the industry get the gauges/ammo close enough to eachother that any variance impacts accuracy rather than safety.

Anyone have a story of catastrophe by headspace? I'm curious how far out of whack these rifles are before the brass tears. I also note that the vast, vast majority of ruptures I've read abut came from bad ammo, obstructions, failure to lock up, and bolt lug failure (roughly in that order), with headspacing itself not figuring in any as far as I can remember :confused:

I have to wonder if this whole "check your headspace often and it has to be accurate to within a thousandth or so" thing arose from those Springfields that weren't properly heat treated and would stretch like Play-Dough until failure when shot; lord knows a lot of other conventional wisdom regarding safety traces back to a single batch of a single rifle (training Arisaka's tainting the whole group, for instance).

TCB
 
Technically, you'd rather the gun be headspaced to the ammo, rather than some arbitrary guage.
You would rather have the gun with proper mechanical headspace, and size your ammo to fit the gun.

The go, no go, and filed gauges are very carefully made, are used by gunsmiths all over the world, and are fairly easy to double check. A loaded round can vary a lot. Having more faith in checking the chamber with a loaded factory round than a no go gauge is incorrect thinking.
 
You would rather have the gun with proper mechanical headspace, and size your ammo to fit the gun.

The go, no go, and filed gauges are very carefully made, are used by gunsmiths all over the world, and are fairly easy to double check. A loaded round can vary a lot. Having more faith in checking the chamber with a loaded factory round than a no go gauge is incorrect thinking.

Loaded rounds don't vary by a lot.

I never said to place more faith in a factory round. I simply said that using a little common sense, you can verify the headspace of your AR is safe with quality factory rounds. It's what you do anytime you use different ammo anyway, check the fit before firing. The method is close enough that I was able to set the headpsace in a couple of FALs that way, later verified when I was able to hook up with a fellow FAL owner with gauges.

There was a thread about headspace gauges over on the FAL Files where it was brought up that you need to be careful which gauges a builder should use because one manufacturer's gauges gave different results than others. It was also brought up that for more consistent readings, do not mix gauges from one make with another- Do not use a GO gauge from one maker and a NO GO from another. Variations do exist
 
Never assume anything!

:what:Guys, as far as I'm concerned, assuming a bunch of parts made by different companies on different days will fit together with all the critical tolerances within spec ranks up there with assuming a gun isn't loaded. This is why they make headspace gauges and why reputable gunsmiths use them. You may very well get lucky, but do you really want to bet any portion of your anatomy on it? Seriously? You don't assume anything; you check everything, just like you check whether or not the hammer will push off full cock and that the safety works. You did do that, didn't you? If not, tell me when you plan to take this thing to the range so I can stay home that day. If you're going to spend the money to buy all the parts to build an AR, spend another twenty or so on The AR-15 Complete Assembly Guide by Walt Kuleck and Clint McKee, read it and follow the directions. When you're done, if you don't want to spend another sixty bucks or so for a set of headspace gauges, take your work to a real gunsmith and ask him to check it. Anything else is like spending the money to build yourself a race car and, on track day, cheaping out and driving it on retreads. You might survive to learn from the experience, maybe.
 
In the interest of morbid curiosity, did any of the famous gun writers ever do an experiment in which they gradually deepened or widened the chamber while firing spec ammo to see just how bad, for example, an M1 Garand had to be before it would reliably rupture cases? For some reason I'm thinking this was done with 1903's by someone (Hatcher?) and that a fairly shocking amount of room was needed to pop the case (like .1" or something )

Yep. It's in his notebook.

It's also in there that mil spec 30-06 ammo can easily run longer than a mil spec chamber. My garand with a chamber that is in the middle of the mil spec range will knock the shoulder of a properly sized round back about 0.005" and will resize HXP rounds that run a tad longer than they should. That's just with chambering the round.

He writes that certain machine guns need ammo with shoulders longer than the chamber to avoid head separation because of this issue.

There are also many reports of people accidentally shooting 7.62 rounds in a 30-06 with about 1/2" of excess headspace. You get a funny looking fireformed case and not much else.

Also, case head separation or a split shoulder is really a non event. Even more of a non event if you have a broken shell extractor in your range bag. In combat, a broken shell in the chamber would be a very bad thing, but only because it takes the weapon out of service. That's one reason the military has religion on avoiding long headspace.

The scary thing you want to avoid is a really short chamber that won't accept the round. It would need to be so short as to give you an out of battery slam fire.

I know the head spaces on all my rifles to within a thou or two. If I weren't hand loading I probably wouldn't care so long as they could easily chamber a factory round. Who cares if the brass gets fireformed a little long if I were never using it again anyway?

J.
 
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Interesting 'what if' discussion but more entertaining than practical re: AR-15 rifles.

If you purchase parts from a reputable mfr. [and the ones who don't hold decent tolerances are out of business in short order] then proper headspace is only an issue if you start mixing and matching bolts and chambers amongst different uppers.

And even then, a "used" bolt in a brand new chamber might headspace just fine...or vice versa. Virgin bolt in virgin chamber...should be good. Ah, the joys of youth.

However, gauges are inexpensive insurance if you consider the possible consequence of grossly out-of-spec parts. And gauges last a looooong time.

Buy...and measure wisely...if you choose, but I can't recall a single problem re: headspace in the last few decades where new, good-quality parts were used in rifles I handled.
 
Maybe I should lie awake all night pondering this latest question of the ages.

The FACT IS, the AR-15 headspaces within spec from the factory!

While ONE might find an out-of-spec headspace on a single example, MOST AR-15's headspace within spec...actually, in 30+ years of putting AR's together I've NEVER found a headspace issue....for whatever it's worth.

It's a shame because IF we could find a huge number of AR's out of spec for headspace we just might be able to bring back the 7.62x51 M1A1! Sure the difference is that HS on an M1A1 must be set by a person well-trained and qualified for EACH AND EVERY EXAMPLE, whereas the AR headspace is set at a factory to such a degree of precision that virtually NO bolt won't fit...

Yeah, let's go back to the process of barreling receivers and setting headspace off the receiver like the M-14....sure it's technologically ridiculous and of zero value, but hey, if it undercuts the popularity of that up-start AR-15 (57 years of popularity) then we NEED to do it!
 
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