Bolt action pistol VS cut down rifle

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Razor_J

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I have heard of specialty bolt pistols( xp-100, strikers) made by manufacturers and custom jobs(Wichita arms and EABCO's pistol). I think it would be awesome to own one and I am debating back and forth between one of them and an encore(but that will be a different thread). I wanted to know if anyone has heard of taking a bolt action rifle, lobbing the barrel off at 16.5-20 inches and changing out/making a new stock that is pistol grip in style, as in a pistol grip for a striker. I know that there are rules about this, namely it must be at least 26 inches in length over all as cosmetic changes don’t make a status change from rifle to pistol.

My motivation for doing this is cost. I could buy a fairly accurate rifle, something used and dinged up on the stock and make a pistol on the cheap. My other option is handing out anywhere from 700-1000 plus for a striker as they go for about that much at local shows. These pistols are usually in some caliber like 7mm BR or 221 fireball which I am not interested in; not to say they aren’t awesome calibers. I wonder if my option makes more sense or if it is asking for trouble.


Bear in mind I do have tools for working a new stock up, chisels, grinders, die grinder etc and have experience making scales for knives and some furniture/window sill fabrication experience. I have extensive metal working experience, and a lathe( albeit small) at home so I feel I could buy my own cut off and re-crowning kit to do the barrel work. However I maintain a good relationship with my local gunsmith and he is willing to do the work for very cheap.

Ideally I would buy a savage 110 to do this. The action is long and will account for some of the requisite length. Plus with changeable bolt faces I could have several barrels and more easily have a couple of pet projects going at once. But if not, any bolt action that will do that is 2 moa or less off the bench. I accept that a bolt pistol while accurate is not as accurate as a rifle in its true form. I just think it would be fun to be able to hit old car doors, and things of that size at 4-500 yards.

Any thoughts?
 
Yes, it's a legal nightmare. It becomes a short barreled rifle under BATFE regulations and the ownership and transfer of it becomes as complicated as owning a machinegun.

If you purchase an unbarreled action and build your own from scratch, it's just fine.

If you modify anything that has EVER been a rifle, or entered into ATF paperwoerk as a rifle, you are dealing with NFA laws, just like machineguns and silencers.


Willie

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If you modify anything that has EVER been a rifle, or entered into ATF paperwoerk as a rifle, you are dealing with NFA laws, just like machineguns and silencers.
To be more precise, though, the "EVER" part is a bit misleading. For 4-5 years now it has been settled that if a firearm starts as a pistol it can be converted to a rifle and then made back into a pistol with no paperwork.

And, regarding "EVER" in terms of ATF paperwork: if you've registered something as a Title II Short Barreled Rifle, but you convert it back to normal rifle configuration with a longer barrel, it is no longer a regulated firearm and you don't even have to notify the ATF, though it isn't a bad idea. In fact, if you take your SBR rifle and put a long barrel on it so it is longer than 16"/26" then you can sell it without the Form 4 transfer.
 
All that said, yes, if you start with a RIFLE you can't go under a 16" barrel AND 26" overall.

So you could make an XP-100 type firearm out of a Savage 110, but it might still have to be a bit more unwieldy than you'd like.

Starting with a bare "virgin" receiver is a better idea. Now, that's not the same thing as a "stripped" receiver that once was built into a rifle. The waters get pretty muddy the farther into that debate you stare, but the answer is probably "no" there.
 
"To be more precise, though, the "EVER" part is a bit misleading"


Used in the context of the OP's question: Anything that was originally manufactured as a rifle is a rifle forever, even if it becomes a pistol. In that case it becomes a NFA short barreled rifle or "SBR" (which brings the host of legal complications).

The other additions are true: You can take a SBR and turn it back into a rifle and have it removed from the NFA, and you can take a pistol and make a rifle and then back to a pistol and be OK.


Willie

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To be an SBR under federal law, it has to have a barrel under 16" and an overall length under 26". If those figures are exceeded, it is not an SBR, whether it has a shoulder stock or not, and since it began as a rifle, it is "a weapon made from a rifle", not a pistol.

Jim
 
You can legally make or redesign from a more restricted concealable weapon (handgun, SBR, SBS, AOW) to less restricted long gun (rifle or shotgun).

You cannot make or redesign from a less restricted long gun (rifle or shotgun) to a more restricted concealable weapon (SBR, SBS) without complying with the NFA by getting an approved ATF Form 1 to make and register an NFA firearm.

A rifle made or redesigned to a barrel length of 16" or longer and overal length of 26" or greater is still a rifle. And is pretty big and clumsy for a handgun.

Maker designed bolt action pistols like Remington's XP100 tend to have the design tweeked to be more handy as a handgun than would be a simply cut-down version of a rifle.
 
Why not start with a new action that does not know what it will be. register it as a handgun or rifle depending on barrel and OAL . You can buy a savage target action with a great trigger avalible at buds in the low 500 dollar range , buy a stock or aftermarket barrel to cut and crown and assemble at home. or a Remington action to build from using one of the savage type barrel kits that shilen and mcgowen make.
Some of the thumb hole stocks have enough meat in the grip area with the laminate stocks you could cut one down and shorten the front to work as a handgun stock.
http://www.rifle-stocks.com/ThumbholeTargetTigerwoodLHSide10inch72dpi.JPG


http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/remington-actions/27555
 
When I sat down and thought this idea up I first looked up the total length of a striker. In short action I see total length figures from 22.5-24 inches. This made me think as that is only 2 inches short of 26 total inches in length. I hear tell that folks lob off 2 inches of barrel to make their rifle more maneuverable but between my 20” 308 and my dads 24” 243 I never did feel much of a handling difference, both as a kid and then a grown up. From a weight perspective unless I use one of those super thick straight bore barrels, 2 extra inches would add only a couple ounces to my total weight. It doesn’t affect the heft all that much. If it did then I would be slightly inconvenienced going from case to sand bags to shooting and back to case. I wouldn’t be hiking with it.

I don’t doubt this thing would be awkward to move around, but since it isn’t that much longer than a striker, roughly 8% longer to be exact, I don’t think that would change much.

I think starting with a fresh action and building a gun piece by piece is really cool. I have built a rifle that way before. Even if the labor was free, I would be dropping the same price range as a gently used striker. The rifle I built was for functionality and beauty. It took me a good while to put cash together for it. I shoot it off sand filled leather bags and it sits inside its case(to prevent generating safe marks on it) while in my safe. It will be an heirloom for my family from my generation and to me was worth the price. A bolt action pistol would be more of a toy for me and a grand is a little too much to spend for something to mess around with; at least at my income level. I say that because if I am going to buy it for fun I intend to shoot the heck out of it and we all know how much ammo costs. If I shorten a rifle and spend 500 in it, that leaves me 200 or so for medium quality glass, and a few hundred for ammo components. That sounds like a hoot to me.

In usual style you good gentlemen have offered me a great deal of advice about the legal ramifications involved. I want to say that I really appreciate yall taking time to be concerned about keeping me out of trouble. As I understood it, a rifle must have both 16 inches of barrel and 26 inches total length. If my length drops below 26 inches and my barrel is still 16+ inches, it is an SBR. Also if my barrel is below 16 inches and my total length is above 26 inches I would again have an SBR. SBR's are of course subject to taxation and registration, assuming you can even have them in your area. If I did do this the total length would be 26+ inches and the barrel would be 16+ inches. I had assumed that this was free and clear as the definition of a SBR does not stipulate what kind of handle is on the weapon.

Not to change the subject but this was in part the reason for looking into encore pistols. I could conceivably buy used encore rifle barrels and cut them down to a shorter size. It would not be as cheap as my rifle method above but it would be lighter. I would also be able to order a custom caliber/barrel if I found I enjoyed the pistol much more than expected.

Thanks again for all the advice. It definitely helps me make a more informed decision.
 
I had assumed that this was free and clear as the definition of a SBR does not stipulate what kind of handle is on the weapon.
You got it!

There's a thread stuck back in the corners of my brain that you might really enjoy...let me see if I can find it...
 
That was a great find sam1911, thank you for showing it to me. bobwright, I see your point right away, frankly I am ambidexterous and shoot just about all my pistols with both hands. I will be looking for a left hand rifle but I would have just as much fun shooting with my left.
 
Sam1911 I could careless what he does or has to do. Just throwings some ideas out there. In NC and most states the receiver on a bolt rifle is whats serial numbered and would be registered as something at a ffl. But otherwise, !!??
 
In NC and most states the receiver on a bolt rifle is whats serial numbered and would be registered as something at a ffl. But otherwise, !!??
It certainly would have a serial number, but there's no need to register it with anyone in all but a very few states.

If he was going to convert it to a Title II firearm (by cutting it down under 26" and/or <16" barrel) he'd have to first register it with the BATFE on a form 5320.1.

Since he doesn't want to change it to an NFA item, he doesn't have to go register it with anybody.


...

EDIT: Aaaah, I get what you were saying, now. If you buy a new action, what will it be when you do the transfer at the FFL's shop?

If it is a bare action, or barreled action without a stock but over 26" long, it will transfer as an Other Firearm. Not handgun, not long gun. Then you could make either out of it.

That's just what's on the transfer paper (4473), not a registration of the weapon.
 
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Transfer !! Registered ?? Least you figured it out what I was getting at. I just used the wrong work. FFl writes it up as a rifle and you may a handgun you have a problem waiting to happen.
 
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