Just to clarify...

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monotonous_iterancy

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Tomorrow I have to give a talk on conspiracy theories for a public speaking class I take. In the past there has been talk on these boards about the ATF going into gun shops and illegally copying records digitally. I mentioned this to someone once, and he thought it was a "conspiracy theory".

I want to know if this would be a good example to use of a modern day theory, and I also just want to know if it's true.

Is there proof about ATF copying, or is it just hear-say?
 
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Could you do us a favor and use a conspiracy theory held by rabid anti gunners instead?
 
Fremmer said:
Could you do us a favor and use a conspiracy theory held by rabid anti gunners instead?
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Fremmer, I'd be curious if you have any examples.

monotonous_iterancy, I would NOT use that as an example of a conspiracy theory. One good hallmark of a conspiracy theory is that it is not easily proved/disproved AND that it has big, far reaching implications. ATF copying FFL books is not quite to that scale and is easily verifiable as true/untrue, not quite "shadowy" enough for a conspiracy theory.
 
Go to Alex Jones's site. It's full of ... "theories" that are much less niche than a rumor about copied paperwork.

You'll have to google him as I refuse to plug his website.
 
You could use the alternate theory about the JFK assignation---Or that Elvis lives according to the Star.:rolleyes: The talk about the ATF copying records is most likely true, but to what extent and what will they ever really gain unless done AFTER any registration is implemented universally. By then those firearms could have changed hands numerous times is no stretch. Not a good argument IMHO. Good luck with your talk.:)
 
monotonous_iterancy, I would NOT use that as an example of a conspiracy theory. One good hallmark of a conspiracy theory is that it is not easily proved/disproved AND that it has big, far reaching implications. ATF copying FFL books is not quite to that scale and is easily verifiable as true/untrue, not quite "shadowy" enough for a conspiracy theory.
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Well, conspiracy theories don't have to be global in scale. Theories are folk-tales that tell something about the people who believe them, what they fear and such.

For example, almost all of us here are vehemently against gun registration. Gun control as an issue is strongly linked to general fear of government overreach, government control. An "enemy above" in conspiracy parlance.

So the copying of records is shady to us, because it's illegal, and because it essentially is registration, which will eventually lead to confiscation.

I think my biggest point in throwing this theory out there is to demonstrate that there are still shady rumors about the ATF, sort of a link to the 90s. It is pretty niche though.


P.S. I would love to take up Mr. Flemmers proposition and work in any conspiracy theories from the other side. Why shouldn't hardcore anti-gunners be stereotyped as being just as crazy as "gun nuts"? I don't know of any theories though.
 
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How about the anti's theory that all you have to do to buy a machine gun is hit the local gunshow, flash some cash and walk out with a brand new full auto machine gun??

Or the "theory" that there really is such thing as a gunshow loophole
 
How about the anti's theory that all you have to do to buy a machine gun is hit the local gunshow, flash some cash and walk out with a brand new full auto machine gun??
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Well, that's more of a factual error than a conspiracy theory. There are no plots, no manipulation.
 
Don't most conspiracy theories fall into the factual error category in the end??

I am NOT arguing, nor even trying to convince you about anything, just asking to satisfy my own curiosity.
 
ATF making a gun registry is not in the realm of conspiracy, reality is far more likely. Good examples of conspiracy theories, stick with the classics. Staged moon landing, 9/11 inside job, JFK assassination, New World Order etc.
 
^Yeah, I suppose they do. I'd even say that most of them have factual errors built into them. It takes some leaps of logic to claim that there really is a secret group running the world.

But I think this thread is easily in danger of veering off-topic, unless it relates to guns somehow.

I'm not trying to discuss all theories. I'm going to try and demonstrate that conspiracy theories are not simply fringe things, but that they are widespread, and held by millions of people, even powerful people. Bill Clinton reportedly asked about UFOs and JFK. He himself has a lot of conspiracy theories about him and his tenure, including ones related to guns, because he made gun control a big part of his administration.
 
Good evening, I am Barrister Skyler Bone and you have won the European Grand Lottery...ok, that's not true. I'll be honest, I've not heard a single conspiracy theory involving firearms unless it related to their use in specific assassinations. It's great when we can involve our passions in our work or homework because of course it is far easier to write about what we know. In this case however, there seems little of interest to report.

The biggest conspiracies I've been following of late, and by follow I mean I've skimmed them over and ID'd them as conspiracies, are the claims surrounding GMOs. It's huge business involving trillions of dollars related to agriculture and packaged food. Major players implicated include Monsanto, Kellogs and Hinz with the claim that Monsanto seeks to destroy the world's traditional seed market to control the entire food supply. These corporations aligning themselves with Monsanto are rich, greedy, evil doers bent on population control.

Not at all gun related but I remind friends who buy into these theories that if true, it's one more great reason to be self-sufficient and well armed since death by lead poisoning is not nearly as disputed as death by Rice Krispys.

Good luck on your report.
 
The biggest conspiracies I've been following of late, and by follow I mean I've skimmed them over and ID'd them as conspiracies, are the claims surrounding GMOs. It's huge business involving trillions of dollars related to agriculture and packaged food. Major players implicated include Monsanto, Kellogs and Hinz with the claim that Monsanto seeks to destroy the world's traditional seed market to control the entire food supply. These corporations aligning themselves with Monsanto are rich, greedy, evil doers bent on population control.
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That's an excellent example. It's true that they sue people who have their seed for patent violations, but does that mean they want to control the global food supply?

As far as guns, do any of you remember the paranoia around Clinton? I wasn't around back then, but I've always read about how people got freaked out after Ruby Ridge and Waco, considering they happened around the same time as major gun laws were passed. As well as things like "question 41". They were prosperous times, but full of paranoia.

On a more contemporary note, what about Fast and Furious? I've read frequently even here that it was actually a plot to whip up support for gun control by linking guns to Mexican gangs.
 
you gave yourself one day to pick a topic, research and write a speech?
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Oh, and I've had this topic selected for a while. I have a general idea of what I'm going to say, I'm just filling in the details.
 
Better yet

Conspiracy by the government to take away our gun rights to keep us docile and create a police state. There is precedent for this in that some believe it is not the anti-gun lobbyists but government agenda's seeking to make us weak...

All you need is a hint of truth, a good theory and you can speak away. 9/11, JFK, Roswell cover-up, NSA spying...oh wait, that one is proven...LOL
 
Here's a thought. That California Senator Yee who secretly smuggled guns? Isn't that a conspiracy? After all, more illegal guns means a bigger market for him.

I mean, I've heard of the influence of big business lobbies..but I don't think those were the kinds of businessmen those people had in mind...
 
Find a link between Yee and an attempt to quietly continue Operation Fast and Furious from the top down and you'll have an awesome conspiracy theory! Better yet, link everything back to Nancy Pelosi and we shall herald your name forever!

There is much to establish a link between certain politicians and the belief that they would outlaw all firearms given the chance, not the least of which are their own statements. Those facts alone prohibit qualification as conspiracy, but as with any issue there are individuals on both sides of the political ticket that have sought to abolish Amendment 2.

Links between claims of disarmament and public safety are easily dismissed when facts are checked. The argument that fewer guns means fewer gun related deaths is solid but that simply doesn't equate to a safer world, only one where victims are killed by other means. Again, no grounds for a conspiracy.
 
"Fremmer, I'd be curious if you have any examples [of anti conspiracies]"
That would be the claims the anti's do not intend ultimate confiscation, the claims the laws are passed in the name of public safety, and most tin-foil-ing-ly, would wield the state's monopoly on firepower in their perfect and disarmed world wisely.

"That California Senator Yee who secretly smuggled guns? Isn't that a conspiracy? After all, more illegal guns means a bigger market for him."
That story sounds like a damn political spy thriller. Seriously, I'm waiting for news he's spilled the beans on The Council of Thirteen, or something (pretty sure Councilman #11 is Feinstein). The guy's hooked up with SE Asian terrorists, Syrian terrorists, local Triads in CA, and apparently runs contraband through the Newark, NJ port in addition to (obviously) entry points on the west coast. Alex Jones has never even dared to conjure up something so crazy :eek:. Further, 98% of media coverage has unbelievably focused exclusively on the civic corruption angle rather than terrorism.

Fast and Furious being an attempt to inflame border violence in order to justify gun laws (as opposed to a thoroughly incompetent and unregulated ATF being numb-nuts) --that's a conspiracy theory. Obama buying up all the 22LR ammo --that's a conspiracy theory. Newtown being a 'black flag' operation is most definitely a conspiracy theory; the weapon used not being the AR15, conspiracy theory (but merely a theory because the gun used was coincidentally an AR15 --the headlines said "AR" long before any real information, same as every other pistol or shotgun-involved mass shooting ;) ). I personally think the ammo shortage being due to 'hoarders' and 'speculators' is a conspiracy theory.

The "Reptoid Conspiracy is my personal favorite as far as hilariously crazy conspiracy theories ("Powerful people simply being greedy self-serving wads? No, they gotta be aliens; that stands up to scrutiny!")

TCB
 
barnbwt said:
"Fremmer, I'd be curious if you have any examples [of anti conspiracies]"
That would be the claims the anti's do not intend ultimate confiscation, the claims the laws are passed in the name of public safety, and most tin-foil-ing-ly, would wield the state's monopoly on firepower in their perfect and disarmed world wisely.


TCB
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Aren't those PRO gun conspiracy theories ABOUT the Antis?

Fremmer sounded like he wanted a conspiracy theory that the Anti's believe in, not one ABOUT them.
 
If you really want to see some crazy conspiracy stuff, go to:

http://wellaware1.com/

Some truly insane stuff there. He doesn't seem to understand that the same guy who was 50 something in WWII couldn't possibly be a 50 something guy in the 70's. But he has way more issues than being unable to tell time...
 
It seems like this ammo shortage is tied to the conspiracy theory that the .gov is buying it all up to keep it out of our hands. That's proven false but many still believe it.
 
While I agree the "DHS Ammo Buy" thing is the most persistent gun-related conspiracy theory of recent times, the OP's talk was supposed to happen on Monday the 7th.


So, how did it go? What gun theories did you discuss?
 
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