I have a p22 and it has been great. Many thousands of rounds with no issues. I liked it because it was easy to suppress before everyone started making a factory threaded barrel. It also has a very small grip; women and children love it. If I had to choose today, I would probably get the sr22.
walther p22
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I had a P22. Mine was very reliable for a .22 LR, but wasn't accurate enough to be enjoyable for me to shoot. I couldn't find an ammo that it would group well with, so I sold it to a friend who wanted on for a suppressor host. It meets his needs and expectations just fine and he loves it.
meanmrmustard
Member
I'd save for that SR22. I've been nothing but pleased with them.
I seriously urge you to reconsider even looking at the P22. There's a reason people say to avoid Umarex products. It is because they are utter garbage and are extremely overpriced. I'm 0/2 on Umarex products, not sure if you really can "win" with them.
Even if you get a "deal" on one it is still essentialy a $400 Jennings J22.
Dudemeister
Member
We get it that you have a problem with the Umarex products, but that''s YOUR PROBLEM. The reality, whether you like it or not, is that the majority of small caliber guns, are made of Zamak, and Umarex is not the only company that uses it.
I'm not sure were all the Umarex bashing comes from, but their product is just as well engineered as any other. Yes, I now they made their name in Airsoft, but they make pretty decent guns. If SigSauer and Smith & Wesson and Colt are willing to use their products and put their name on it, why would you think they're the "utter garbage" you make them out to be.
I for one am proud to say I do have a P22 that has about 6-7K rounds through it and and still going strong, I also have a Colt M4 Rimfire (also made by Umarex), with i don't even know how many rounds through it. My son has a P22, and a GSG 1911-22, and he loves them.
FWIW, Hi-Point also makes lots of products from Zamak, including slides for their .380, 9mm and .45ACP. If those slides can survive the .45ACP recoil, I'm sure they'll do just fine with .22LR
Last but not least, yes there are lots of pics of P22 cracked slides on the net, but there are a hell of a lot more pics of broken and cracked Glocks; slides and frames. Does that make the Glock "utter garbage"?
The problem (at least for Walther aficionados) comes from the fact that Umarex like to conceal the origin of many of their products by using the storied Walther banner (when, in fact, those products are not made by Walther). Those products simply are not up to the standards (quality, reliability, durability, fit & finish) of real Walther products. And in doing so, they sully the Walther brand for those who do not know what they are buying (see Schwing's remarks, for example).
The other problem is the fact that Umarex charges as much for their potmetal pistols as other manufacturers (Ruger, Browning, etc.) charge for more durable steel or steel & aluminum alloy pistols that will last a lifetime.
Dudemeister
Member
FWIW, I'm also a P99AS owner, and I don't feel that Walther is sullying the Walther name.
On another note, I feel that it should be mentioned that, to this day, NONE of the P22 bashers have been able to prove that the P22 is manufactured by Umarex. The only "proof" mentioned is this:
1. No ULM Staghorn proofmarks, only Cologne Triple Crown
2. Cologne is where the UMAREX factories are located
3. The quality is not the same as the P99
4. Umarex owns Walther.
All that is conjecture, not proof.
First and foremost, Walther officials have already stated that the gun is made by Walther in their Arnsberg factories. The ULM factories are where their centerfire guns are made (P99, PPQ, PPS), while Arnsberg is where they make the P22 and the PK380, as well as other tactical rimfire guns like the Colt M4, HK MP5 and Uzi.
The triple crown Cologne (Koln) proofmark shows it was proof tested in Cologne, doesn't mean it was made there. The barrel also has the Eagle/N proof mark which is the Nitro proof issued at ULM. The slide of the P22 also bears the Carl Walther ULM/Do marks.
Quality is not e same as a P99. That's subjective. I think the quality of the frame molding is quite good. On a par with the P99. Sure, it's different, because it has to be, it is a scaled down version of the P99 after all.
The slide quality is obviously lower than the quality of the P99. But there's a reason. The slide is made of cast Zamak, not forged. You can't compare the 2 processes. The finish is as good as I've seen on any cast products.
LAst but not least, just because Umarex owns Walther, it doesn't mean they actually make the gun. Their core product is airsoft, and they don't need to invest in new tooling and get into the manufacture of real firearms, when they can just let Walther make money for them. To say that they would deliberately undermine their cash cow with poor products is simply silly. All they do is act as the distribution channel for all those products.
The other problem is the fact that Umarex charges as much for their potmetal pistols as other manufacturers (Ruger, Browning, etc.) charge for more durable steel or steel & aluminum alloy pistols that will last a lifetime.
No one forces you to buy any of their products if you think they're too expensive. There's lots of guns out there that are overpriced, yet people do buy them. If they didn't those companies wouldn't be in business.
I don't care if Walther builds it or not. Junk is junk. For the record, I don't doubt that Umarex does build the P22.
I'm glad you enjoy overpaying for low quality firearms priced like quality steel or aluminum firearms. Good for you, obviously you 're doing well for yourself. I'd prefer to buy guns that function properly and don't fall apart after 10k rounds of one of the least powerful rounds on the planet. I don't mind the zamak construction, I mind the price. Only suckers pay for something made of die cast metal when there are similar guns in the same price range that last.
I'm glad you enjoy overpaying for low quality firearms priced like quality steel or aluminum firearms. Good for you, obviously you 're doing well for yourself. I'd prefer to buy guns that function properly and don't fall apart after 10k rounds of one of the least powerful rounds on the planet. I don't mind the zamak construction, I mind the price. Only suckers pay for something made of die cast metal when there are similar guns in the same price range that last.
Great info there. Thanks.That's the sad thing about Umarex foisting their junk on the unsuspecting buying public while using the "Walther" name. It sours people against REAL Walther products (like the P99, PPQ, and PPS), which are some of the highest-quality pistols on the market. Folks who swear off Walther due to the substandard Umarex products are really missing out on some great firearms.
Unfortunately, Walther doesn't really have a say in the matter, since Umarex owns a majority stake in Walther, and can use the Walther name as they please (though this doesn't excuse Colt, HK, S&W, and others who are all to happy to license their name for use on Umarex products).
It's up to the consumer to know what they are buying. This is actually pretty easy with Walthers, thanks to German law. Real Walthers (made at the state-of-the-art Walther factory in Ulm, Germany) carry the "staghorn" proofmark of the Ulm proofhouse. Firearms made by Umarex in Arnsberg, Germany (near Cologne) carry the "shield with three crowns" proofmark of the Cologne proofhouse.
Just remember:
Staghorn: Good.
Shield/3 Crowns: Bad.
P99 with Walther "Staghorn" Ulm Proof:
Umarex P22 with "Shield/3 Crowns" Cologne Proof:
I suggest you go over to waltherforums.com. There are members there that have been to the factories (as well as Walther America reps) who have SEEN which products are manufactured in Ulm by Walther and in Arnsberg (Cologne) by Umarex. The proofmarks DO correspond to the manufacture locations in the case of current-production Walther-branded pistols.
It is no secret that the P22 (as well as the G22, new .22LR PPK/S and most PK380s, as well as the discontinued-due to quality problems-SP22) are made by Umarex at Umarex's factory in Arnsberg.
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Schwing
Member
I would argue that the P22 is junk, even if you managed to get one that cycles properly.
Anyone arguing that it is made of quality parts has never taken a serious peek inside. I stripped mine down to the bones to try and fix it and was completely disappointed.
Virtually every part lacked any type of finish work. There were burs on all of the moving parts etc. It was so bad that the entire trigger assembly was full of metal and plastic shavings from those moving pieces shredding each other.
The feed ramp had visually obvious horizontal tool path marks on it which snag on the tip of the rounds as they slide up the ramp. It also had a huge step at the top of the ramp where it enters the barrel which is why many of the mis-feeds people experience with these are rounds that completely leave the magazine only to be flipped upside down by the feed ramp.
I would even argue that this gun is unsafe. In mine, the J spring was so loose that the safety would fall open or closed depending on the orientation of the gun it is a simple enough task to enlarge the j spring but ridiculous that it is necessary.
The trigger bar ears were so rough that they wore divots into the slide compounding the problem. They were not just wear divots. There were CHUNKS of zinc torn away from the slide. As others have pointed out in other forums, the trigger bar isn't even wide enough for the slide so the ears can actually fall off of the ramp... at which point you have a non functioning gun. The trigger bar is also made up of some kind of spring steel that really isn't spring steel at all. Over time, the trigger bar ears are squished together magnifying the wear on the slide even further.
Finally, the hammer itself is too large for this gun. As the slide moves back to re-cock the hammer, it is actually slamming into a hammer that is nearly 5/16s too tall for the design. This further wears on the underside of the slide and is the biggest contributor to all of the jams people experience. On mine, once Walther made it clear that I was on my own, I ground the dang thing down about 1/32 at a time until it cycled properly. I actually had to grind off more than 5/16's before I was any kind of reliable. I would not recommend this to someone inexperienced at this since doing it improperly can render the already crappy safety completely useless and lead to sporadic bump firing etc.
I would also point out that this is a $300 to $400 gun. At this price range, there are so many other proven and quality designs out there that the p22 is just a complete waist of money. Those of you lucky enough to have a functioning P22 just need to wait for a few years...
Anyone arguing that it is made of quality parts has never taken a serious peek inside. I stripped mine down to the bones to try and fix it and was completely disappointed.
Virtually every part lacked any type of finish work. There were burs on all of the moving parts etc. It was so bad that the entire trigger assembly was full of metal and plastic shavings from those moving pieces shredding each other.
The feed ramp had visually obvious horizontal tool path marks on it which snag on the tip of the rounds as they slide up the ramp. It also had a huge step at the top of the ramp where it enters the barrel which is why many of the mis-feeds people experience with these are rounds that completely leave the magazine only to be flipped upside down by the feed ramp.
I would even argue that this gun is unsafe. In mine, the J spring was so loose that the safety would fall open or closed depending on the orientation of the gun it is a simple enough task to enlarge the j spring but ridiculous that it is necessary.
The trigger bar ears were so rough that they wore divots into the slide compounding the problem. They were not just wear divots. There were CHUNKS of zinc torn away from the slide. As others have pointed out in other forums, the trigger bar isn't even wide enough for the slide so the ears can actually fall off of the ramp... at which point you have a non functioning gun. The trigger bar is also made up of some kind of spring steel that really isn't spring steel at all. Over time, the trigger bar ears are squished together magnifying the wear on the slide even further.
Finally, the hammer itself is too large for this gun. As the slide moves back to re-cock the hammer, it is actually slamming into a hammer that is nearly 5/16s too tall for the design. This further wears on the underside of the slide and is the biggest contributor to all of the jams people experience. On mine, once Walther made it clear that I was on my own, I ground the dang thing down about 1/32 at a time until it cycled properly. I actually had to grind off more than 5/16's before I was any kind of reliable. I would not recommend this to someone inexperienced at this since doing it improperly can render the already crappy safety completely useless and lead to sporadic bump firing etc.
I would also point out that this is a $300 to $400 gun. At this price range, there are so many other proven and quality designs out there that the p22 is just a complete waist of money. Those of you lucky enough to have a functioning P22 just need to wait for a few years...
JERRY
Member
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in case some didn't know, the cracked slides on the P22s were (all that I know of anyway) the ones used with the added compensator which caused metal to bang against metal in a way I don't think it was suppose to.
I could be wrong of course, but mine and the ones I know of personally haven't had any problems, except a co-workers was picky about which bulk ammo it would feed.
I could be wrong of course, but mine and the ones I know of personally haven't had any problems, except a co-workers was picky about which bulk ammo it would feed.
Dudemeister
Member
Oh, I've been there before, I'm a member of those forums as well. If you refer to the trip that Tangfolio has taken at the Umarex factory, then you are probably referring to the P22 frames and slide on the factory floor. Then you probably also noticed that there are just as many P99, PPQ and PPK frames and slides as well. Does that mean those are made there too??
Mark Thomas the marketing guy at Walther has already stated the P22 is made by Walther, not Umarex. Is it possible that Walther is using Umarex factories to produce certain parts, sure. Is it made by Umarex... not so sure.
Never the less, the question is, is the gun really as bad as some would make it out to be? I personally don't have any problems with it, my son doesn't have any problems with his, and a friend of mine that was one as well, has no problems (that I know of).
The internet is a wonderful thing, but if I were to base my purchase decisions strictly on what I read, I probably would never have bought a lot of things that I did buy. Negative reviews and complains gather a lot more momentum than positive ones, so it's no wonder you'll see a lot of bashing of certain products. As I previously mentioned, if you do a search for "Broken Glock", you'll get a lot more hits than for a broken P22, yet you don't see many people raving about what a P.O.S. the Glock is. My Walther P99 got a cracked frame from a factory load, but did I label the P99 crap and got rid of it. No, I got a replacement and been shooting it ever since.
BTW. Walther is not a really wonderful company to deal with. When the frame on my P99 broke, they told me unequivocally that I'm on my own. Luckily the gunstore owner I bought mine from was able to "convince" them to replace it free of charge. Dealing with Walther direct is not a pleasant experience.
Mark Thomas the marketing guy at Walther has already stated the P22 is made by Walther, not Umarex. Is it possible that Walther is using Umarex factories to produce certain parts, sure. Is it made by Umarex... not so sure.
Never the less, the question is, is the gun really as bad as some would make it out to be? I personally don't have any problems with it, my son doesn't have any problems with his, and a friend of mine that was one as well, has no problems (that I know of).
The internet is a wonderful thing, but if I were to base my purchase decisions strictly on what I read, I probably would never have bought a lot of things that I did buy. Negative reviews and complains gather a lot more momentum than positive ones, so it's no wonder you'll see a lot of bashing of certain products. As I previously mentioned, if you do a search for "Broken Glock", you'll get a lot more hits than for a broken P22, yet you don't see many people raving about what a P.O.S. the Glock is. My Walther P99 got a cracked frame from a factory load, but did I label the P99 crap and got rid of it. No, I got a replacement and been shooting it ever since.
BTW. Walther is not a really wonderful company to deal with. When the frame on my P99 broke, they told me unequivocally that I'm on my own. Luckily the gunstore owner I bought mine from was able to "convince" them to replace it free of charge. Dealing with Walther direct is not a pleasant experience.
Quentin
Member
As this thread illustrates, there's a lot of disdain for Umarex. And I have to admit it is worrisome to buy a Colt, Walther, H&K or S&W logo actually made by an airsoft company. Also, the term "pot metal" sure is a turnoff.
But I went forward and bought a "Colt" M4 Tactical 22 a few years back. Glad I did, what a fun AR trainer that gobbles up pretty much everything except Remington Golden Bullet. Then this year I bought a "Colt Rail Gun" 1911-22 and by golly it even eats the RGB! Lots of fun. They work, and their zinc alloy is much better than junk pot metal. As strong as steel, no, but good enough for .22lr.
So, I like Umarex, at least for air guns and 22lr!
And price... (Let's face it, a real Colt 1911-22 or Colt M4-22 would cost a lot more than the $370 and $450 respectively I paid for the Colt/Walther/Umarex lookalikes.)
Honestly I can't say anything about the P22 first hand, you'll have to go with others' first hand experience.
But I went forward and bought a "Colt" M4 Tactical 22 a few years back. Glad I did, what a fun AR trainer that gobbles up pretty much everything except Remington Golden Bullet. Then this year I bought a "Colt Rail Gun" 1911-22 and by golly it even eats the RGB! Lots of fun. They work, and their zinc alloy is much better than junk pot metal. As strong as steel, no, but good enough for .22lr.
So, I like Umarex, at least for air guns and 22lr!
And price... (Let's face it, a real Colt 1911-22 or Colt M4-22 would cost a lot more than the $370 and $450 respectively I paid for the Colt/Walther/Umarex lookalikes.)
Honestly I can't say anything about the P22 first hand, you'll have to go with others' first hand experience.
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This is Mark Thomas's exact quote on the subject:
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/...-session-marth-26th-8pm-cst-3.html#post256521
Here are photos of the main entrance of the Umarex factory in Arnsberg, Germany where P22 pistols are made. Note the name over the door. Also note the flags showing brands under the Umarex corporate umbrella (of which Walther is one). There is no doubt who owns and operates the factory making P22s:
Thomas says "we" because he represents Walther (and thus Walther's parent company - Umarex) as an employee of Walther America.
Here is a direct link of Tangfolio's trip to the Umarex factory:
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/faq-general-discussion/16660-visit-walther-umarex-germany.html
He has no photos of the P99 or PPQ frames on the factory floor. Those frames you see in Tangfolio's photos are both old style (P99-look-alike) and new-style (PPQ look-alike) P22 frames. This is evident by the shorter mag release lever (newer P99s and PPQ M1s have a much longer release lever), the much smaller mag well openings to accept single-stack .22LR mags, and the serial number cut-out on the right side of the frame above the grip. P99s and PPQs do not have serial numbers here. The PPK frames you see are of the Umarex-made potmetal .22LR PPK/S look-alikes.
As Mr. Thomas says, the P99, PPQ, PPS, and PPX are made in Ulm. The PPK is made by S&W in the United States.
By the way, here is a photo of the Walther factory in Ulm. Notice the the name on the factory and the fact that "Umarex" is nowhere to be seen. It would be like Lamborghini putting a "Volkswagon" sign over the door to their factory.
Sure - Volkswagen owns Lamborghini, but the factory is truly a separate operation.
...And here is a video (in German) showing the P99 pistols being manufactured and subsequently tested at the Walther factory in Ulm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOKVb9Y2bic
Fun fact! Manfred Kloker (the guy seen in the video testing the P99s as they come off the line in Ulm), is the same guy who signed the test target that came with my personal P99AS!
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meanmrmustard
Member
I'm not saying they're crap, just that the SR22 is a better gun overall.
I had a P22. Note that I said HAD. It was stylish, looked cool, and I bought it because...
1) I wanted a .22 to teach the kids how to shoot.
2) I like the Walther name.
In the end, I sold it off. It was picky. VERY picky. Unless I was using CCI amo, I simply could not get through a 10 round mag w/o an issue of some kind at least 80% of the time. Even w/ CCI ammo, it was still only 60% or so w/o a failure.
If it wasn't for how darned pickey it was, I'd still have it.
On the plus side, I had a casing that got stuck in the barrel. I stuk a thin metal rod down the barrel to pop the casing out, and in the process gouged the inside of the barrel. Walther replaced it no muss, no fuss. Can't beat that.
1) I wanted a .22 to teach the kids how to shoot.
2) I like the Walther name.
In the end, I sold it off. It was picky. VERY picky. Unless I was using CCI amo, I simply could not get through a 10 round mag w/o an issue of some kind at least 80% of the time. Even w/ CCI ammo, it was still only 60% or so w/o a failure.
If it wasn't for how darned pickey it was, I'd still have it.
On the plus side, I had a casing that got stuck in the barrel. I stuk a thin metal rod down the barrel to pop the casing out, and in the process gouged the inside of the barrel. Walther replaced it no muss, no fuss. Can't beat that.
mstreddy
Member
OP,
I had posted this in an earlier thread on my P22 experiences, back on June 2012:
Walther P22 broke and fixed
There are some other posts there.
That pistol actually gave up the ghost around Dec 2012. By that point I figure the high round count at around 25K. The slide cracked in 3 places. I called S&W (walther) they provided shipping label. And the pistol got sent in. A week or so later they called me to tell me the frame was cracked and that they would have to replace the gun. They did this and shipped a brand new replacement gun to my dealer in about 6 weeks.
I have been shooting that new gun since then on nearly every outing. It had an issue with some jams early on, but some really good cleaning, oiling and a slight break-in and it's rocking strong.
I'll see how long it lasts.
Are my results typical? I don't know, but I can tell you that it has eaten every ammo (think bulk fodder) that I give it. No, I don't spend money on the CCI stingers.
So, while YMMV, here is one satisfied P22 owner -- and S&W service is outstanding!
On a side note -- I do own a Sig Mosquito, but I leave it at home most of the times. I find it to be finicky about ammo. Even with the "other" spring it will still choke on bulk fodder from time to time.
I do own a Ruger Mk2 22/45, a S&W 22A, S&W 41 and a Taurus 94 revolver. So, I can compare the P22 to others. The Walther is the preferred due to being the host for the suppressor.
Hope this helps,
Eddy
I had posted this in an earlier thread on my P22 experiences, back on June 2012:
Walther P22 broke and fixed
There are some other posts there.
That pistol actually gave up the ghost around Dec 2012. By that point I figure the high round count at around 25K. The slide cracked in 3 places. I called S&W (walther) they provided shipping label. And the pistol got sent in. A week or so later they called me to tell me the frame was cracked and that they would have to replace the gun. They did this and shipped a brand new replacement gun to my dealer in about 6 weeks.
I have been shooting that new gun since then on nearly every outing. It had an issue with some jams early on, but some really good cleaning, oiling and a slight break-in and it's rocking strong.
I'll see how long it lasts.
Are my results typical? I don't know, but I can tell you that it has eaten every ammo (think bulk fodder) that I give it. No, I don't spend money on the CCI stingers.
So, while YMMV, here is one satisfied P22 owner -- and S&W service is outstanding!
On a side note -- I do own a Sig Mosquito, but I leave it at home most of the times. I find it to be finicky about ammo. Even with the "other" spring it will still choke on bulk fodder from time to time.
I do own a Ruger Mk2 22/45, a S&W 22A, S&W 41 and a Taurus 94 revolver. So, I can compare the P22 to others. The Walther is the preferred due to being the host for the suppressor.
Hope this helps,
Eddy
wally
Member
That has been the main use for our P22 as its a nice package suppressed. However once I got the Tac-Sol threaded upper for the Ruger the P22 sees little use. Bad as the Ruger is to takedown for cleaning, I find the P22 worse.
Glad to hear S&W is supporting the P22 as if it were their own. My M22A is well over 60,000 rounds and its been back to them a couple of times for repairs at no cost to me beyond a trip to FedEx to drop off the package. Would be closer to 80K rounds if .22lr ammo was so scarce
mstreddy
Member
Wally,
I also picked up the Tac-Sol upper for the Ruger and I have been using it. Unfortunately my 22 can is down right now for maintenance so haven't been shooting 22 much. And of course ammo scarcity doesn't help.
I do like the Tac-Sol -- a lot! But, honestly it's just too purdy and I don't want to scratch it up. On my M22A, it also went back to S&W about 6 years ago due to a cracked lower receiver. They made it right -- replaced the lower. Right now it's down due to the silly recoil buffer. Neither S&W, Brownells, or Numrich have any in stock. It's been several months already.
I'd probably shoot the M22A even more if it had a threaded barrel. It's a fine pistol.
Funny, I find the P22 pretty easy to take down and put back together, and for the most part I can clean out the chamber area and ramp pretty good without having to disassemble it.
Don't get me started on the Ruger. Even after many years and having owned 3 of them, I still can't master the reassembly. It usually takes me a try or 3. Of course the M22A is downright easy.
The Model 41 is pretty easy too when it comes to field stripping.
Eddy
I also picked up the Tac-Sol upper for the Ruger and I have been using it. Unfortunately my 22 can is down right now for maintenance so haven't been shooting 22 much. And of course ammo scarcity doesn't help.
I do like the Tac-Sol -- a lot! But, honestly it's just too purdy and I don't want to scratch it up. On my M22A, it also went back to S&W about 6 years ago due to a cracked lower receiver. They made it right -- replaced the lower. Right now it's down due to the silly recoil buffer. Neither S&W, Brownells, or Numrich have any in stock. It's been several months already.
I'd probably shoot the M22A even more if it had a threaded barrel. It's a fine pistol.
Funny, I find the P22 pretty easy to take down and put back together, and for the most part I can clean out the chamber area and ramp pretty good without having to disassemble it.
Don't get me started on the Ruger. Even after many years and having owned 3 of them, I still can't master the reassembly. It usually takes me a try or 3. Of course the M22A is downright easy.
The Model 41 is pretty easy too when it comes to field stripping.
Eddy
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