Older 218 Bee and 22 Hornet rifles

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CoalTrain49

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I'm researching the possibilities of buying an older rifle (pre 70) in one of these calibers.

My only concern is the availability of bullets. I read that some of these older rifles have .223 bores and I want to use the .224 bullets that are available in bulk for AR's.

I had a Win. 43 years ago and like a fool I sold it along with my dies and brass. :banghead:

Now I want another one.
 
Good luck!
First, prices will be astronomical. A Win Mod-70 or Mod-43(irrc) are collector items. Savage or others rare. I haven't even seen a Savage '60's era .22Hornet for less than $400 in years... And it was "UGLY"... I've always wanted but couldn't find a Marlin M1894CL in .218Bee when they were being made. I've only seen one "in person" and it had the so-called Marlin "Jam" issue, and wasn't for sale, at ANY price. Currently, one can be had for around $1,200 on the internet(gunbroker.com). I'll pass....

Second, .223" bullets are available, but probably won't be needed. Sierra makes the best, but Hornady aslo catalogs some. Any thing (rifle) made after the early '40's will have a .224" bbl, and most of the .223" guns shoot "ok" with .224" bullets. Thats why there's no factory .223" ammo.

Third, the early guns have 1/16" twist barrels and won't shoot (most likely, though there's always the exception) the heavier, especially boat-tail bullets worth considering.Expect key-holeing at any velocity. My 1/14" Ruger shoots them so-so. However, I cast a 50gr fngc cast bullet that does yeoman duty in the Hornet. No need for the FMJ 5.56 bullets.
 
Good luck!
First, prices will be astronomical. A Win Mod-70 or Mod-43(irrc) are collector items. Savage or others rare. I haven't even seen a Savage '60's era .22Hornet for less than $400 in years... And it was "UGLY"... I've always wanted but couldn't find a Marlin M1894CL in .218Bee when they were being made. I've only seen one "in person" and it had the so-called Marlin "Jam" issue, and wasn't for sale, at ANY price. Currently, one can be had for around $1,200 on the internet(gunbroker.com). I'll pass....

Second, .223" bullets are available, but probably won't be needed. Sierra makes the best, but Hornady aslo catalogs some. Any thing (rifle) made after the early '40's will have a .224" bbl, and most of the .223" guns shoot "ok" with .224" bullets. Thats why there's no factory .223" ammo.

Third, the early guns have 1/16" twist barrels and won't shoot (most likely, though there's always the exception) the heavier, especially boat-tail bullets worth considering.Expect key-holeing at any velocity. My 1/14" Ruger shoots them so-so. However, I cast a 50gr fngc cast bullet that does yeoman duty in the Hornet. No need for the FMJ 5.56 bullets.

What new rifle would you suggest? Ruger, CZ ? I don't like the new savage triggers.
 
My 14" Contender in 218 Bee shoots better with 45gr bullets vs 50gr. Just sayin' since you want to shoot bulk AR bullets........
 
The rifles that use the .223 bullets in 22 Hornet were usually the 1922 Springfield that was originally chambered for .22 LR and converted to a Hornet. All mordern rifles (post 1940) will be made with .224 diameter barrels with various twist rates. Make sure you use Hornet specific bullets as those for the 222 or 223 REM will not expand at hornet velocities. I use Lil Gun with great results as well when reloading for it. Hope you find just the rifle you are seeking. 40 and 45 grain hornet bullets work best for me as well.
 
We have a Winchester low wall built in 1905. Bought a new barrel for it to utilize the. 224 bullet.
 
What new rifle would you suggest? Ruger, CZ ? I don't like the new savage triggers.
I had a Ruger 77/22 Hornet. Accuracy was less than stellar. It went away. You can do some various upgrades, but in the end you still just have a Ruger with a lot of money in it. And maybe it will shoot, maybe not

When I get another, it will be a CZ. I've got two CZ's (a .204 and .22LR) and they are outstanding. Both shoot true ragged one hole groups.

Also might try either a Browning Micro Hunter or Kimber if they fit your budget.
 
CoalTrain49: I shoot both a 218 Bee in a model 43 Win that I bought used in 1963. And a CZ 527 American model in 22 Hornet, my Son also shoots a CZ 527 22 Hornet. We reload for both and have never seen a .223 bore in either caliber just .224 bores. The 218 Bee is a great old rifle and is one of my all time treasures. But it does not compare to the CZ 22 Hornet in any way, IMHO. Because of the increase in value of my old 218 Bee I have all but retired it now. The CZ 22 Hornet comes with a Single Set Trigger, that is just great, we have never had any type of problems with any of our CZ Rifles. And the CZ People in Kansas City are just great to deal with. The CZ 22 Hornet has a low report, extremley accurate, and no recoil. We Varmint Hunt with our CZ 22 Hornets and because of the low report, we get alot of 2nd shoots, and we are allowed to hunt on alot of places just besause of the low noise level. If I could help ansewer any more of your questions please feel free to ask, Our CZ 22 Hornets fill a special nich for my Son and I.
ken
 
Actually CZ Hornets do have .223 bore diameter. Shooting .224 bullets is safe and can be quite accurate in these guns since most commercial Hornet ammo today is loaded with .224 bullets. I believe Sierra makes a .223 Hornet bullet and maybe Privi Partisan loaded ammo may be .223 bullets

Years ago, P.O. Ackley conducted some tests using a 270 Winchester chambered rifle. He fired .284 bullets then .308 in the rifle. Accuracy was poor and pressures were erratic but non the less the gun survived. I have a TC Contender 22LR barrel that I chambered to shoot 22 mag ammo. Boy does that gun shoot. Of course there is about .001" difference in groove diameters between 22 LR and 22 mag but effects are nominal.

If we went with a .224 barrel and fired .223 bullets, accuracy may be somewhat lacking or it may be ok from my tests years ago.

I've owned Hornets in many formats over the years and almost always chamber the Hornets to the "K" version for enhanced case life, 100fps velocity gain, and often a little better accuracy. My favorite Hornets have been the Ruger #1, Browning 1885, and the Ruger 77. The little NEF/H&R single shots make great little Hornets for those on a budget. I believe the cost of an additional barrel fitted at the factory is around $125 shipped to our door. Good shooting!
 
kolob10: I called CZ in Kansas City several years ago when my Son & I first bought our CZ 527 22 Hornets and a CZ`s Tech Rep and Gun Smith both told me that a CZ 527 22 Hornet had a 224 diameter bore. I just got off the phone with CZ Kansas City (( 1-913-321-1811 )) again I talked with a Tech Rep and Gun Smith and also talked to the guy in charge of CZ`s Custom Shop in Warsaw Mo. All three of these people confirmed that the CZ 527 22 Hornet has a 224 diameter bore not a 223 diameter bore. And that they did not know of any CZ Rifles in 22 Hornet Caliber made with a 223 diameter bore made after WW 2. IMHO I still think CZ makes the best 22 Hornet, I have ever owned.
ken
 
In answering post #3, I'd not suggest a Ruger. Mine is the third Ruger 22 Hornet I've owned and the only one with decent accuracy. At that, it's "damaged goods" from the box. It has a profound amount of bolt "slop" between the bolt halves and requires "shimming" every 1,000rds or so with a C-shaped piece of wire inside the bolt to keep it tight enough to be able to extract the fired cases.

I would recommend finding a "bargain" on a T/C Contender frame and buy a T/C .22 Hornet barrel and butt-stock to make a T/C "carbine". I KNOW that the T/C barrels are accurate. Any Ruger in .22 Hornet is apt to be a "hit or miss" proposition.
 
I just happen to have about 1500 45 grain .223 Hornet bullets and some cast that I'd sell if someone wants them. I got these 16 years ago from a co-worker whose father reloaded for what I believe was a 22 K Hornet? I have a bunch of the brass to and some loaded rounds that I don't think I'd shoot, not knowing what's inside the cases. That old guy was surely picky though and had packed the bullets in cotton inside old Borg/Warner points boxes.
I'm in central Minnesota.
 
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Probably not any available now but I have a story about GI surplus Hornet ammo. Lots was loaded for Air Force survival rifles and was quite common on the surplus market in the past. All FMJ bullets that had been sealed with pitch for waterproofing. That is a common practice with GI ammo but it was not too great on Hornet. The bullets were glued into the cases so tight the cases would separate on first firing. Not sure if over pressure caused it or the bullet actually pulling the case in two. I was impressed by the strength of the M43 action, it never showed any distress from what had to be very high pressures. I solved the problem by bumping the bullets a little deeper in the case with the seating die to break the seal. Now I wish I had a few original full boxes of the surplus ammo, probably is a collectors item now.
 
Even an old thread deserves photos!

Springfield M1922, converted to 22 Hornet.

SpringfieldM1922001_zpsc50a8aa3.gif

Since the photo, I have recieved a proper rear sight (Lyman 48C) and scrubbed the bore to get ready to work up cast bullet loads.
 
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