Is there a statutory construction problem with 18 USC 922(d)? Selling to a felon?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
3,653
Location
Peoples Republik of New Jersey
This statute reads screwy?

Does the person to whom the sale is made have to be a felon, or does the seller merely have to have reasonable cause to believe that the person is a felon?

If all you need is reasonable cause to believe the person is a felon, doesn't that include a reasonable doubt that the person might not be a felon?

What if a person who is not a felon pretends to be a felon and someone sells that person a firearm thinking it a likely that the person is lying about being a felon?


(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
(6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
(B)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
 
Last edited:
I am not a lawyer. The way I read this is, if you know they are a felon no sale.
If you suspect they are a felon, or are not telling you the truth, no sale.
If I were suspicious at all, no sale.
I really think this is meant to keep someone from selling a firearm to someone knowing they are a felon and then going I didn't know. When for a fact you have lived near the person all your life and know they have been in prison. The reason for this thought is the "having reasonable cause" part of the law.
 
Buyer says something like, "I would buy this from a dealer, but I can't pass the NICS check..."

That's reasonable suspicion the person might be a prohibited person. The sting operations conducted by ATF/law enforcement include some statement or other obvious action that would be a tip to the seller that the "buyer" was a prohibited person.

Another requirement in Federal law is no reasonable belief the person does not reside in the same state you do. Person shows up to buy your gun and they have out of state license plates, that would be a reasonable suspicion the person is not a same state resident, unless they show you something like military orders to your own state.
 
doesn't that include a reasonable doubt that the person might not be a felon?

No, if you are given any reason to believe they may be a felon then its a no go. Its not criminal court where guilt has to be established beyond a reasonable doubt.

And beyond the pure legality do you really want to sell to someone that has given you reason to question?
 
Don't sell to anyone whom you have any reason to suspect is a prohibited person. Why would someone say something like that to a seller unless they were trying to trap the seller?
 
Bushmaster...Are you trying to ask if it's possible to be convicted if law enforcement set up a sting and basically told the seller they were a felon?

Because...short of that, it seems like it's irrelevant...if you sell to a person thinking they're a felon and they're not, it's not a smart move, but I don't see how it could come back against you...

Really though...just don't sell to someone you think might be a felon.
 
I only sell or trade through an FFL.

I was asking a hypothetical legal question based on the unusual wording of the statute.
In the case of someone posing as a felin it seems like it might be a "thought crime"
 
while your question maybe hypothetical the consequences are not. that is what I read from what is written. Everything is a thought crime. that is why you never tell anyone your intentions, malice or not. jmho.
 
Wait, so your question is if you could be prosecuted for selling a gun to someone you THINK is a felon, but who ISN'T a felon?

Woah, weird. From one reading of the law, yes. If someone gives you every indication that he IS a felon (even if he's not) and you sell to him, you'd be breaking the law by deliberately attempting to do that which the law sets out to stop. By the strictest interpretation it doesn't really matter whether he is a felon, only that YOU KNOW, or have reason to know, that he is one.

Now, practically? Would you be charged with selling to someone if they told you they were a felon, but aren't? Well...if they're an undercover officer...
 
bushmaster1313 said:
...Does the person to whom the sale is made have to be a felon, or does the seller merely have to have reasonable cause to believe that the person is a felon?...
bushmaster1313 said:
...I was asking a hypothetical legal question based on the unusual wording of the statute...
I don't think the wording of the statute (18 USC 922(d)) is really all that unusual. We see the "reasonable cause to believe" language in 18 USC 922(a)(5), 18 USC 922(b)(3), 18 USC 922(i), 18 USC 922(j), 18 USC 922(q)(2)(A), and 18 USC 922(x)(1).

And phases such as "reasonable cause to believe", "knew or should have known", "knows, or upon reasonable inquiry would know", "knows, or on reasonable inquiry ought to know", or the like are common in statutes and court decisions. The point in much of the law in general is that one can not necessarily avoid responsibility by determined ignorance, but can be held responsible for what he really should have known.

I would argue that one should not be liable for a violation of, for example, 18 USC 922(d) for transferring a gun to someone who is not actually a prohibited person. But at the same time, he would not be able to avoid liability if the transferee actually was a prohibited person by claiming he didn't actually know as an absolute fact that the transferee was prohibited, if the transferee did or said things which would reasonably cause the transferor to believe that the transferee is prohibited.

Of course that raises some questions with regard to stings where an undercover agent tries to acquire a gun and drop hints that he's prohibited. I'm aware of such "stings" carried out for publicity and political purposes, but I haven't done any research into whether there have been any successful prosecutions as a result.
 
Last edited:
but I haven't done any research into whether there have been any successful prosecutions as a result.
Well, now that would be a very interesting thing to see, and I guess I'm a little surprised that such isn't a commonly known thing.

Does the act of selling to someone you know or believe is a prohibited person ever result in a conviction for breaking the law -- even if they are truly not prohibited? Is the acted-upon willingness to break the law sufficient for conviction even if the person buying is truly a lawful buyer? The literal wording would seem to indicate yes.

But would a court ever, or has a court ever, gone for a conviction? One would presume that while a "sting" buyer may indeed be a law enforcement agent or actor from another state (thus an interstate sale sting would work), a law enforcement agent could literally not BE a felon...

Fascinating question!
 
Sam1911 said:
...Does the act of selling to someone you know or believe is a prohibited person ever result in a conviction for breaking the law -- even if they are truly not prohibited? Is the acted-upon willingness to break the law sufficient for conviction even if the person buying is truly a lawful buyer? The literal wording would seem to indicate yes...
There's a real question of where the line is.

On one hand, IIRC Bloomberg and his group staged stings where someone attempting to buy a gun dropped hints that he might be prohibited. I believe that this did not result in prosecutions, but rather the results of that "experiment" were being used to promote universal background check legislation. I don't have the details at hand, and if someone has more information on the subject, I'd be grateful for it.

On the other hand, stings and undercover operations are common, and if performed correctly can produce successful prosecutions of various types of crimes.
 
The Congressional purpose would be to prevent prohibited persons from acquiring firearms.
Convicting persons of selling when they think the person is a felon would have the overall effect of reducing sales to actual prohibited persons, but I would argue that this is too remote to be Congress's intent.
 
Convicting persons of selling when they think the person is a felon would have the overall effect of reducing sales to actual prohibited persons, but I would argue that this is too remote to be Congress's intent.

That may be, or may not be.

The law is written "... It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person..."

It could have been written "... It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person who is any of the following, if the seller knows or has reasonable cause to believe that such person..."

But that's not what they wrote. And courts are free to enforce the text of the law.
 
Sam1911 said:
...The law is written "... It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person..."

It could have been written "... It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person who is any of the following, if the seller knows or has reasonable cause to believe that such person..."....
Well, I'm afraid that we're going to have to get technical.

I've done some actual research -- kind of light weight research, but the sort of thing that any lawyer has the tools to easily do.

First, I haven't found a reported federal appellate case in which there was a prosecution solely on the basis of a reasonable cause to believe. But far more important I found a case that discusses the application of "reasonable cause to believe" language in the context of another, non-firearm statute.

In U.S. v. Saffo, 227 F.3d 1260 (10th Cir., 2000), the 10th Circuit considered an appeal from a conviction of a violation of 21 U.S.C. 841(d)(2), viz. (emphasis added):
(d) Offenses involving listed chemicals

Any person who knowingly or intentionally -

(2) possesses or distributes a listed chemical knowing, or having reasonable cause to believe, that the listed chemical will be used to manufacture a controlled substance . . . shall be fined in accordance with Title 18 or imprisoned not more than 20 years . . . .

As stated by the court (at 1267):
...The first question raised by Saffo is whether the alternative "reasonable cause to believe" mental state in § 841(d)(2) is constitutionally sufficient to impose criminal liability....

In answering defendant's question, the court wrote (at 1267 -- 1269):
...We hold that it is.

"The existence of a mens rea is the rule of, rather than the exception to, the principles of Anglo-American criminal jurisprudence." Dennis v. United States, 341 U.S. 494, 500, 71 S.Ct. 857, 862, 95 L.Ed. 1137 (1951); see also Morissette v. United States, 342 U.S. 246, 250-51, 72 S.Ct. 240, 243, 96 L.Ed. 288 (1952). Congress has the authority to define the mens rea it deems appropriate for a specific crime. See United States v. McArthur, 108 F.3d 1350, 1354 n.8 (11th Cir. 1997) (citing Staples v. United States, 511 U.S. 600, 603-06, 114 S.Ct. 1793, 1796-97, 128 L.Ed.2d 608 (1994)); see also Liparota v. United States, 471 U.S. 419, 424, 105 S.Ct. 2084 2087, 85 L.Ed.2d 434 (1985) ("The definition of the elements of a criminal offense is entrusted to the legislature, particularly in the case of federal crimes, which are solely creatures of statute."). We should "avoid construing a statute to dispense with mens rea where doing so would 'criminalize a broad range of apparently innocent conduct.'" Staples, 511 U.S. at 610 (citing Liparota, 471 U.S. at 426).

The scienter standard of "knowing or having reasonable cause to believe" or one essentially identical to it is present in numerous federal statutes, many of which, like § 841(d)(2), impose felony punishments for violations. See e.g., 21 U.S.C. § 960(d)(3) (importing or exporting listed chemicals "knowing or having reasonable cause to believe" that the chemical will be used to manufacture a controlled substance); 18 U.S.C. § 842(h) (possessing, transporting, or selling explosive materials "knowing or having reasonable cause to believe" that the explosive materials were stolen); 18 U.S.C. § 922(d) (selling or otherwise disposing of any firearm or ammunition to any person "knowing or having reasonable cause to believe" that such person meets one of nine criteria); 18 U.S.C. § 231(a)(1) (teaching or demonstrating to another the use, application, or making of any firearm or explosive or incendiary device "knowing or having reason to know or intending" that it will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder that may obstruct, delay, or adversely affect commerce); 18 U.S.C. § 231(a)(2) (transporting or manufacturing for transportation in commerce any firearm, or explosive or incendiary device "knowing or having reason to know or intending" that it will be used unlawfully in furtherance of a civil disorder"); 18 U.S.C. § 1546(b) (using an identification document "knowing (or having reason to know)" that the document was not issued lawfully for the use of the possessor or is false); 18 U.S.C. § 2512(1) (manufacturing, distributing, possessing, and advertising devices for the surreptitious interception of communications "knowing or having reason to know" that the design of the device renders it primarily useful for the purpose of the surreptitious interception of wire, oral, or electronic communications).

Standards such as these have been described as imposing a sufficient mens rea requirement on a number of occasions. For example, in Gorin v. United States, 312 U.S. 19, 27-28, 61 S.Ct. 429, 433-34, 85 L.Ed. 488 (1941), the Supreme Court responded to a vagueness challenge to the Espionage Act, which used a scienter standard of "intent or reason to believe [that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States,]" by stating: "The obvious delimiting words in the statute are those requiring 'intent or reason to believe . . . .' This requires those prosecuted to have acted in bad faith. The sanctions apply only when scienter is established." See also United States v. Wuliger, 981 F.2d 1497, 1504 (6th Cir. 1992) (upholding the "reason to know" standard of 18 U.S.C. § 2511(1)(d) as a "constitutionally sufficient basis for criminal liability"); United States v. Green, 779 F.2d 1313, 1318-19 (7th Cir. 1985) (rejecting defendant's argument that the "knowing or having reasonable cause to believe" standard in 18 U.S.C. § 841(d)(2) sets up a standard of negligence or recklessness that is different from knowledge); United States v. Featherston, 461 F.2d 1119, 1121-1122 (5th Cir. 1972) (upholding "knowing or having reason to know" standard in 18 U.S.C. § 231(a)(1), and citing Gorin, 312 U.S. at 27-28); National Mobilization Comm. to End the War in Viet Nam v. Foran, 411 F.2d 934, 937 (7th Cir. 1969) (stating that the "knowing, or having reason to know or intending" language of 18 U.S.C. § 231(a)(1) is an intent requirement that "of course 'narrows the scope of the enactment by exempting innocent or inadvertent conduct from its proscription'" (citation omitted)).

In light of these authorities, we hold that the "knowing or having reasonable cause to believe" standard in 21 U.S.C. § 841(d)(2) imposes a constitutionally sufficient mens rea requirement. In so holding, we note that the standard involves a subjective inquiry that looks to whether the particular defendant accused of the crime knew or had reasonable cause to believe the listed chemical would be used to manufacture a controlled substance. This requires scienter to be evaluated through the lens of this particular defendant, rather than from the prospective of a hypothetical reasonable man. In this context, the "reasonable cause to believe" standard is one akin to actual knowledge. See State v. Smith, 123 A.2d 369, 64-65 (N.J. 1956) (stating, in the context of a discussion of a statute's "reason to believe" standard, that "[k]nowledge within the meaning of law . . . may consist of credible information on material facts and circumstances sufficient in content and quality to generate a reasonable belief.") (citation omitted). The "reasonable cause to believe" standard thus comports with the subjective "guilty mind" or "guilty knowledge" requirement for imposing criminal liability. As further stated in Smith's discussion of a "reason to believe" statutory standard:...

So we've really been looking at the statute(s) incorrectly. Thus the crime described in 18 USC 922(d) is not transferring a gun to someone you know or have reasonable cause to believe is a prohibited person -- whether or not he is a prohibited person. The crime is transferring a gun to a prohibited person when you have the requisite scienter/criminal intent, viz., knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that the transferee is prohibited.
 
Aaaaah! Wonderful work! Thanks!

So a "sting" in which a federal law enforcement officer told you, "I'm a convicted felon," and convinced you to sell him a gun anyway, would not be able to proceed to conviction because he was actually NOT a felon or prohibited in any way. The mens rea is not sufficient to convict, absent the actual transfer to a prohibited person.
 
Aaaaah! Wonderful work! Thanks!

So a "sting" in which a federal law enforcement officer told you, "I'm a convicted felon," and convinced you to sell him a gun anyway, would not be able to proceed to conviction because he was actually NOT a felon or prohibited in any way. The mens rea is not sufficient to convict, absent the actual transfer to a prohibited person.
Isn't this the question SCOTUS will answer in Abramsky vs US?
 
JRH6856 said:
Isn't this the question SCOTUS will answer in Abramsky vs US?
Not really. According to Abramski's petition for certiorari, the questions before the Supreme Court are:
1. Is a gun buyer’s intent to sell a firearm to another lawful buyer in the future a fact “material to the lawfulness of the sale” of the firearm under 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6)?

2. Is a gun buyer’s intent to sell a firearm to another lawful buyer in the future a piece of information “required . . . to be kept” by a federally licensed firearm dealer under § 924(a)(1)(A).
 
Ok, I don't know why I connected the two. Maybe the thread where we discussed Abramsky took off on this tangent. Anyway, nevermind, carry on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top