45C BP loads

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whughett said:
Accuracy seemed as good as the smokeless rounds.
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I can't speak to the ROA but most of the SAA reproductions from the 20th century ate Black Powder quite well. I understand that some of the newer models have strayed farther from Colts original pattern and have problems with binding.

I know that with the right boolit all three of my SAA's will easily match smokeless loads for accuracy. I don't shoot as much Black Powder cartridge as I used to but hopefully when we get back home I'll take the time to run some cartridges up and go play. They are a lot of fun.
 
Still running with the 45C BP loading. ROA with R&D drop in conversion cylinder, Bell Moutain base pin and latch system.

The 40 grain was way too stiff a load and no fun for target shooting after 25 rounds so dropped to 30 grains, that was ok, accurate but still stiff, now am trying 50 rounds at 25 grains with wax carton card and grits to the top. Even number powder loads because powder spigots come in number increments by 5. All with an unsized 255 grain SWC thrown from the mold at .453. Standard LP CCI primers.

First 50 with unlubed bullets, second 25 with pan lubed bullets, messy messy, last 50 will go back to unlubed and grease up the mouths of the chambers.

Have handloaded for more years than I care to recall and was always concerned about double charges and excessive pressure rounds, no such thing I guess in this BP cartridge game.

Two ROA one cap and ball one cartridge, same powder load 30 grains, yet the cartridge speaks with much more authority, anyone know why. The cartridge has a heavier, by 55 grains, bullet but that can't be the only reason.
 
Two ROA one cap and ball one cartridge, same powder load 30 grains, yet the cartridge speaks with much more authority, anyone know why. The cartridge has a heavier, by 55 grains, bullet but that can't be the only reason.
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Howdy

Two reasons. Yes, a bullet is significantly heavier than a round ball. A 44 caliber round ball weighs somewhere around 150 or 160 grains of so. I believe you said you are using a 250 grain bullet. That is a huge addition of the mass that needs to be moved, so recoil is significantly increased. The other factor is a ball is only retained in the chamber by a little bit of friction created by a thin band of lead around the diameter. A cartridge has the bullet mechanically crimped in place. So again, more resistance to the charge moving the bullet. Two's a pretty good reasons why recoil is much heavier with a cartridge than a round ball.
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
Howdy

Two reasons. Yes, a bullet is significantly heavier than a round ball. A 44 caliber round ball weighs somewhere around 150 or 160 grains of so. I believe you said you are using a 250 grain bullet. That is a huge addition of the mass that needs to be moved, so recoil is significantly increased. The other factor is a ball is only retained in the chamber by a little bit of friction created by a thin band of lead around the diameter. A cartridge has the bullet mechanically crimped in place. So again, more resistance to the charge moving the bullet. Two's a pretty good reasons why recoil is much heavier with a cartridge than a round ball.
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Sounds about right so how do we account for the sound . Just for the heck I mixed some smokeless loads in at random, same bullet in both, the smokeless 4.6 grains, by weight, of Clays ,different recoil, different sound. Must be some dynamics at play here.
BTW I did say cap and ball, should have said percussion, the bullet was a 200 grain REAL by Lee.

,
 
A good bit of gas is lost out of the nipple of the cap and ball revolver.

The primer seated in the primer pocket of the cartridge helps retain that gas.

Very interesting thread, guys.
 
Has anyone ever pulled a bullet out of a Goex 45 BC round and weighed the powder? If there's no answer to this, I will later today and see what it is.
 
dickydalton said:
Has anyone ever pulled a bullet out of a Goex 45 BC round and weighed the powder? If there's no answer to this, I will later today and see what it is.
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Good luck but I doubt you'll be able to get the powder out of the cartridge. During the loading process the powder is compressed either mechanically or during the bullet seating depending upon how Goex does it. Once the powder is compressed it basically becomes a pellet and you'll have to dig it out with something. I would suggest possibly shooting one then weigh the brass for an empty weight then pull the bullet on a charged cartridge and weigh it with the powder in it. However much more it weighs than the empty one would of course be your charge weight.

It would be interesting to know how much they jam into the brass at the factory.
 
Foto Joe said:
Good luck but I doubt you'll be able to get the powder out of the cartridge. During the loading process the powder is compressed either mechanically or during the bullet seating depending upon how Goex does it. Once the powder is compressed it basically becomes a pellet and you'll have to dig it out with something. I would suggest possibly shooting one then weigh the brass for an empty weight then pull the bullet on a charged cartridge and weigh it with the powder in it. However much more it weighs than the empty one would of course be your charge weight.

It would be interesting to know how much they jam into the brass at the factory.
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Well, I just used my trusty Dillon bullet puller on a Black Dawg 235 gr 45 colt cartridge.
Sorry Joe, the powder came out loose and weighed out to 30 grains. I didn't put it in a measure, darn. I should have. It looks to be 3F. When I put the powder back in the case it looked like the bullet would seat back on top OK but I still seated it a bit deeper to be sure. The bullet weighed 242 grains with the lube and a few particles of powder stuck to it.
 
Don McDowell said:
Was that out of a box of full power or reduced loads? They listed both varieties.
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It doesn't say on the boxes. I have 2. I think I shot a couple out of my ROA a few years ago over the chrony and it was over 1000FPS. I bought these a few years ago.
I Will test them soon and get back to you.
 
I'm really surprised that they just lose drop the powder without any compression. The 30gr sounds about right for a modern factory load, with a 240gr bullet it will definitely get your attention but I'm thinking that 1k fps sounds a little fast out of a handgun.
 
Just before the Black Dawge plant blew last year, they sent out some loads for testing with that 230 gr bullet and the Olde Eynsford powder, it was doing 1035 over the screens from a 7.5 in barreled model P.
 
I pulled one of my own loads just to see what the powder did under compression. Used a hammer style puller. The powder stayed in the case. It was a solid plug.
 
Howdy

I sometimes make a mistake and have to pull a bullet. Generally speaking, at least with my loads, there is a thin 'crust' of compressed powder on top, but the rest is relatively uncompressed. I pick out the crust, and the rest of the powder shakes right out.

This of course varies on how much compression you have. I have always tried to achieve just 1/16" - 1/8" of compression. At that amount of compression, just the top 1/8" or so of the powder gets compressed, the rest is packed in a bit, but it is free to fall out when the case is shaken.

You need to have a lot of compression to compress the entire powder column into a solid, compressed plug. At moderate levels, only the top portion of the powder gets compressed. That is the nature of granular materials. The top portion gets locked in place as the facets of the grains lock in place. But once the top is compressed, the compression does not continue down any further.

That has been my experience.
 
And that is just how the round I mentioned in post 64 was , just a thin crust,that I broke with a screw driver, but that held the powder in while the card, filler and bullet landed in the bottom of the hammer. The milk carton card was imprinted on both sides from the powder and grits so there was considerable force applied.

Something new learned. Good day.
 
I shot some of the Black Dawgs today. They are 235 grain BP and there's 30 grains of powder in them.
Out of my new vaquero 4.62" they averaged 880 fps.
Out of my ROA conversion cyl. 7.5" they averaged 1005 fps.
.457 round balls with 35grains of 3F and a wad did 1113 average. I must add that 5 rounds of the cap n' ball went 1115, 1116, 1110, 1112, 1115.
That cylinder was loaded in December and in a case in the safe.:)
 
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Driftwood Johnson said:
Howdy

I sometimes make a mistake and have to pull a bullet. Generally speaking, at least with my loads, there is a thin 'crust' of compressed powder on top, but the rest is relatively uncompressed. I pick out the crust, and the rest of the powder shakes right out.

This of course varies on how much compression you have. I have always tried to achieve just 1/16" - 1/8" of compression. At that amount of compression, just the top 1/8" or so of the powder gets compressed, the rest is packed in a bit, but it is free to fall out when the case is shaken.

You need to have a lot of compression to compress the entire powder column into a solid, compressed plug. At moderate levels, only the top portion of the powder gets compressed. That is the nature of granular materials. The top portion gets locked in place as the facets of the grains lock in place. But once the top is compressed, the compression does not continue down any further.

That has been my experience.
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My compression target in general with black powder cartridges and my experience as well.

I get 40 grs under a paper patched 380 gr slick in the 454 Casull case (for rifle) but that verges on overcompression in my view. Interestingly, I recently saw a video on another forum of someone reviewing Atlantic Products 45 Colt BPC with a 255 gr RN bullet in a cartridge conversion cylinder. These cartridges claim 40 grs of Goex under that bullet! I'll bet there's more than 1/8" of compression going on there! Was chronographing at 1020 from a 5.5" barrel. Remarkable recoil...
 
I think that anyone getting 40 grains into a modern 45 Colt case is pounding hard to get a 255 Keith in there. The old balloon head cases had more volume.
 
No not really pounding hard, compressing the powder is pretty simple. Especially just using the expander die like the rcbs or the lyman m die. Pour the powder in the case, seat a thin card wad on top the powder and run it into the die.
 
Well I settled on a 25 grains of Graff and Sons, by volume, 3F black, a milk carton card, corn grits to fill the case and the 250 grain SWC .453 bullet seated to the crimping cannular with a roll crimp. The bullet drops from the Lee six cavity mold at the .453 diameter. No lube on the bullet yet, still lubing the mouth of the chamber. For center fire I size and lube this bullet to .452

I had obtained a second Ruger Old Army and as I already had a conversion cylinder obtained a Bell Mountain Base Pin and latch to set this ROA up for cartridges only. Hence the interest in BP Cartridges.

Of interest to some may be this. This Old Army has a hair trigger, something the previous owned failed to mention. Shoots real good, accurate but once the hammer is cocked the pull can be measured in ounces. Knowing this increases the safety awareness and I would have liked to address it, so I contacted Ruger and they gave me a RMA number and off it went. To make a long story short they then called and said the gun could not be repaired, no parts, and then offered to replace it with a current manufactured single action of my choice for a discounted price. I declined and the piece is on its way back.
Still trying to figure out why, after explaining the issues ,they would have me send the piece in.

If anyone knows of a repair facility or has had a similar problem feel free to PM.

.
 
As far as lubing your boolit instead of lubing the cylinder throat I'm curious as to what you use to lube these for smokeless. Are you using an NRA 50/50 type lube or something a little more fancy?

I've used the NRA 50/50 with Black Powder using a Lyman 4500 and had pretty good success with not creating a gooey mess when firing. Just a thought for you.
 
Foto Joe said:
As far as lubing your boolit instead of lubing the cylinder throat I'm curious as to what you use to lube these for smokeless. Are you using an NRA 50/50 type lube or something a little more fancy?

I've used the NRA 50/50 with Black Powder using a Lyman 4500 and had pretty good success with not creating a gooey mess when firing. Just a thought for you.
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The bullets I am currently using are what I normally shoot in my S&W model 25. When used as smokeless they are ran thru a RCBS heated lube and sizer using blue magic lube. This is a hard lube for smokeless that must be heated. It is not suitable for black powder use. I don't want to change this machine over to use a bp lube, or buy an additional sizer, hence the unsized unlubed bullets in the bp cartridges, and applying lube to the chambers mouth rather than the bullet. I am experminting with pan lubed bullets and have made a "punch" to cut the bullets from the lube. Just need to come up with the correct beeswax/Crisco mixture that will cling in the grease goooves but not be too soft.
 
Try some of the Gatefoe #1, whugett. I think it'll work fine. I have used it on Lee Conicals I have cast and it was very good. That's the same stuff I use on wads. I sat the conicals in a pie pan and poured the lube in let it harden and used a cut down 45-70 case to cut them out.
 
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