orphanedcowboy
Member
From the looks of it, it would be ideal for use in a converted percussion revolver or a revolver premanufactered to accept them.
Anybody have a rifle or knows where one is that shoots these?
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Skylerbone
Member
I'm starting to wonder if the OP is toying with us!
The only cartridge styles that I've found similar, excepting the "reverse rim" were made for Steyr's ACR which this clearly is not and an 8mm German tear gas round which offered an open mouth with the projectile unexposed. Still, neither of those offered the exact cartridge shape nor the odd primer. Whatever it is, I'd take care to preserve it.
The only cartridge styles that I've found similar, excepting the "reverse rim" were made for Steyr's ACR which this clearly is not and an 8mm German tear gas round which offered an open mouth with the projectile unexposed. Still, neither of those offered the exact cartridge shape nor the odd primer. Whatever it is, I'd take care to preserve it.
ugaarguy
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The closest thing I've found is a picture and some info on a couple of early 1870's Frankford Arsenal front loading pistol cartridges. You have something interesting there, Forum_Name.
Skylerbone
Member
I thought about those front loaders too but this cartridge appears far more modern. I have it now, that's a .45GAP, which explains why none of us have any experience with it. 
Nom de Forum
Member
I have not been toying with you guys. I however have not been telling you what I think it may be, as I am concerned it may be a fake. I was hoping it would be intriguing enough that THR members would take the time to pull out some old books and confirm what it is and where there may be a rifle for it. At the risk of appearing foolish, I think it may be a cartridge for one of these: 52 Bore Gravity Feed Needham Repeating Rifle.
I hope I have not been duped by a fake. There are more photos on line, Yahoo search, that show a internal view drawing of the cartridge. There is also a drawing in the 10th edition of Small Arms of the World. I am still hoping someone on THR with better resources than me can confirm its authenticity.
I hope I have not been duped by a fake. There are more photos on line, Yahoo search, that show a internal view drawing of the cartridge. There is also a drawing in the 10th edition of Small Arms of the World. I am still hoping someone on THR with better resources than me can confirm its authenticity.
Skylerbone
Member
I only meant toying as in I suspected you might have a strong inkling of what it was. That you did not disclose your suspicion made the chase that much more interesting.
Nom de Forum
Member
I knew you where not being critical and it was my intention to make "the chase that much more interesting". All chases can be tiresome if too long. I now have posted what I suspect about the cartridge. What prompted this thread was a little house cleaning and rediscovery of this cartridge. Last time I tried to find out more about it was before any information was available on the Internet. I am hoping Mike Irwin will weigh-in on the matter.
elephant_man
Member
I wanna guess a Thuer cartridge or something similar for early conversions of Colt percussion revolvers.
If you google Thuer Cartridge in google image search and keep scrolling you'll see some more weird front-loaded cartridges.
If you google Thuer Cartridge in google image search and keep scrolling you'll see some more weird front-loaded cartridges.
Mike Irwin
Member
It's definitely not a Gallagher cartridge.
Those were externally primed only, and didn't have the forward "rim."
It looks something like some of the various rounds that were developed in the 1860s to get around the Smith & Wesson patent on the drilled through revolver cylinder. The Moore teat fire cartridge and the Crispin are two that are probably most familiar to people.
I've never seen a cartridge like this one, though.
What makes you think it's for the Atkinson & Needham?
Try as I might, I've not been able to find a picture of a cartridge for that rifle.
It's definitely similar to a Thuer cartridge, but I don't think it is a Thuer. Those had flat bases.
Those were externally primed only, and didn't have the forward "rim."
It looks something like some of the various rounds that were developed in the 1860s to get around the Smith & Wesson patent on the drilled through revolver cylinder. The Moore teat fire cartridge and the Crispin are two that are probably most familiar to people.
I've never seen a cartridge like this one, though.
What makes you think it's for the Atkinson & Needham?
Try as I might, I've not been able to find a picture of a cartridge for that rifle.
It's definitely similar to a Thuer cartridge, but I don't think it is a Thuer. Those had flat bases.
Nom de Forum
Member
Mike Irwin
Member
To be honest, this cartridge just does not look that old to me. It doesn't have any of the patina or lead oxidation that I'd expect on an old cartridge.
I think your best bet would be to run this thing past the people at the International Ammunition Association forums (http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/)
I think your best bet would be to run this thing past the people at the International Ammunition Association forums (http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/)
Mike Irwin
Member
"Take a look at this."
Wow.
That does look like the same thing.
I don't know why that didn't come up on my searches, maybe by feng has been slightly schwiued or something...
If that is a Needham cartridge, chances are it's valuable.
Wow.
That does look like the same thing.
I don't know why that didn't come up on my searches, maybe by feng has been slightly schwiued or something...
If that is a Needham cartridge, chances are it's valuable.
Nom de Forum
Member
Thanks for your assessment and recommendation Mike. Would the fact that the cartridge has been stored for at least 35 years in the warm, very low humidity climate of the Sonoran Desert possibly account for the lack of patina or lead oxidation?
alfon99
Member
http://www.municion.org/450/Needham.htm
It's in spanish.
It's in spanish.
Panzerschwein
member
What a strange duck you have there!
Nom de Forum
Member
If I told you guys the whole story of how it came to be mine and how little I paid for it you would all think I was lying.
Nom de Forum
Member
Here is an amusing google search translation:
Cartridge designed in 1881 by Needham to your rifle.
It was a weapon with drum type revolver magazine but load front.
The cartridge itself is a vessel of brass with a hole at the base where it is located the copper piston and a ring of brass in the mouth. The ring serves both to position the cartridge in the bedroom to keep in place the lead bullet.
alfon99
Member
It's dead wrong, spanish is my native language so I will translate it in my next post.
alfon99
Member
Translation:
.450 Needham
Cartidge designed in 1881 by needham for his rifle.
It was a gun with a revolver type drum magazine (I think he meant cylinder) but front loading.
The cartidge is a brass (Here it says vaso which means glass as used for drinking, which is an allusion to the shape of the cartidge) With a hole in the base where a copper piston is located and a brass ring. The ring is used to position the cartidge in the chamber and to hold in place the lead bullet.
.450 Needham
Cartidge designed in 1881 by needham for his rifle.
It was a gun with a revolver type drum magazine (I think he meant cylinder) but front loading.
The cartidge is a brass (Here it says vaso which means glass as used for drinking, which is an allusion to the shape of the cartidge) With a hole in the base where a copper piston is located and a brass ring. The ring is used to position the cartidge in the chamber and to hold in place the lead bullet.
alfon99
Member
I did the best I could on translating.
So according to this the brass ring (where the lead bullet is) is separated to the rest of the cartidge. So the cartidge is made of two pieces, the case (or whatever it's called) and this "ring"
What called my attention is that a copper "piston" was mentioned. I have no idea on what this could be.
So according to this the brass ring (where the lead bullet is) is separated to the rest of the cartidge. So the cartidge is made of two pieces, the case (or whatever it's called) and this "ring"
What called my attention is that a copper "piston" was mentioned. I have no idea on what this could be.
Nom de Forum
Member
Thank you alfon99 and I hope you realize my comment about the translation being amusing was because it was obviously a mistranslation and I was not making a negative comment about the spanish language. Thanks again!
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Nom de Forum
Member
The copper "piston" is almost certainly a reference to the copper centerfire primer in the center of the case head.
Thanks for confirming the cartridge case is composed of two parts. I thought it was and the bullet was held in place by the "ring". I wonder if it has a Berdan or Boxer type centerfire primer.
alfon99
Member
I have to admit I laughed hard at the google translation! It's even more inaccurate than the chinese intruction manuals.
"To position the cartidge in the bedroom"
"To position the cartidge in the bedroom"
Skylerbone
Member
Perhaps the primer is attached to the projectile to position the bullet in place (prevent it from simply falling out)?
Found another possible source for info on the rifle, one came to auction at Bonhams, from the listing,
W.W. Greener, The Gun And Its Development, Ninth Edition, pp. 724-726
Here's the link to it: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/11257/lot/126/
The fact that you have such a cartridge, complete with fuzzy cell phone pics is all the evidence I need to believe that its history to your hands, no matter how seemingly fictitious, would be worth hearing and I for one would have no reason to doubt the author's word. Regale us if you please, I am firmly hooked.
Found another possible source for info on the rifle, one came to auction at Bonhams, from the listing,
W.W. Greener, The Gun And Its Development, Ninth Edition, pp. 724-726
Here's the link to it: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/11257/lot/126/
The fact that you have such a cartridge, complete with fuzzy cell phone pics is all the evidence I need to believe that its history to your hands, no matter how seemingly fictitious, would be worth hearing and I for one would have no reason to doubt the author's word. Regale us if you please, I am firmly hooked.
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