FFL fees and other taxes question

Not all yet, only if they have a brick and mortar store or offices in the state.

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Yep. They'll hit you with the tax if you buy new stuff from Amazon.com, buy used from out of state and you're good. They'll hit you with the tax on guns you transfer through a 01 FFL, the one time I made the mistake of doing that they even charged me tax on the shipping The way around that is to transfer your stuff through the place on post or get your own FFL.

the folks whining about the fee should get their own FFL and do it if it is just SO easy

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The problem with that is you're not supposed to even apply for a 01 if you don't intend to 'engage in the business'.

The more I think about it the more the tax thing bothers me. How can someone that did not actually sell anything collect sales/use tax. You would think even with an enforceable use tax law on the books it would need to be collected by the online retailer and not at the store it was shipped to.

Could this store be just pocketing the "sales tax"? If so that's fraud and someone could get into some major trouble. I could be way off base here, I just don't understand how a business that didn't actually sell you anything is able to collect sales tax. If there is some mechanism provided in the WA law for receiving ffls to collect the tax then I apologize. That mechanism would probably also explain a higher transfer fee as it would create one more thing for employees to deal with.

EDIT: Looks like happygeek hit reply before me if I understand his post correctly sounds like there is indeed such a mechanism.

Yep, they have a mechanism. They figured it'd be easy to force compliance since the 01 FFL is keeping the 4473 on file for 20 years. They do similar if you buy a used car or register a car you bought out of state in WA; they'll hit you with the usage tax when they get it on record when you register for the tags.

Their tax is ~9.3% depending on the particular county, so I doubt many people report used furniture and such they bought when they file taxes. They've also created quite the incentive for people to go shopping in Portland, and for those of us who aren't legal residents to avoid buying things while we're here (I'm moving this fall due to the dictates of work, hopefully to a state with less tax).

I pay my FFL $25 for a transfer. He would like to sell me a new gun but I don't generally buy new so he has to be happy with the transfer fee when I buy or sell. Anyone who would tack on a surcharge because I didn't buy from them would lose me pronto. I don't mind paying the WA sales tax. I'm retired and WA doesn't tax my retirement. We're even. Everyone has to eat, even gov't employees.

Local FFL/LGS has been my best bet. My "go to" charged me $30 for the first one and $5 for every transfer since. His smith does my trigger work, so he makes $ off me in other ways. The 10% is TOTAL bovine fecal. Should be a reasonable flat fee or walk, IMHO.

deadin said:

The time spent on a transfer should be just a little longer than that spent on a regular sale. They have to log the gun in AND out of their book. Everything else should be the same. (NICS check, ringing up the sale, etc.)

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Actually just the opposite. The dealer must log in firearms they receive from their distributors. In addition the dealer must actually order the firearms they receive from their distributors and pay those distributors the wholesale price of the firearm. Then there is the overhead associated with storing and displaying the firearms before they are sold, and the inventory requirements.

In reality it is a heck of a lot easier for the FFL to do only a transfer of a firearm that the customer has had sent to them.

Yep, they have a mechanism. They figured it'd be easy to force compliance since the 01 FFL is keeping the 4473 on file for 20 years.

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It does not end ther. The FFL then has to send all info, gun name address, to the Dept of Licensing where they enter it in a data base. As of the first of the year they were about 7 months behind in entering the info.

The time spent on a transfer should be just a little longer than that spent on a regular sale. They have to log the gun in AND out of their book.

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Unless your FFL has a very special tree that grows guns, I would imagine that every gun he sells/transfers to you will be logged into AND out of his book.

2bfree said:

It does not end ther. The FFL then has to send all info, gun name address, to the Dept of Licensing where they enter it in a data base. As of the first of the year they were about 7 months behind in entering the info.

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Only for pistols.

At that point they have your gun, not many good choices. I'm assuming you lined it up with this place before anything was shipped.

Politely ask if the policy was posted anywhere (a similar one is posted behind the register at a local place). If it is somewhere you should have seen it, pay. If not do what you did and ask for a waiver because you were not informed of that policy. They refuse you are probably going to have to pay it but they might be willing to ship it somewhere else for a lesser fee.

ohbythebay They are not going to charge me that but say I walked in and they said there is a 10% fee. what would be my option ? Refuse delivery ? Contact the seller ?

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Get their transfer policy in writing BEFORE having a gun shipped to them for starters.

Remember, this is already paid for....and I do have expectation for the tax and FFL. But what would be the right thing to do if they said "we charge 10% of the cost of the gun if we sell them and they are in stock"

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If that is their transfer policy...........you pay it since you chose them.

I would refuse to accept the gun, nothing they can do to make you pay if you do that. You may be out the shipping cost depending on where you actually bought it from though. Though what would probably happen is exactly what did happen they'll waive that extra "just this one time".

Long time lurker, but had to point it out- I would never consider asking any of the lgs I use for transfers to transfer in a gun they have in stock. I even ask them to price what I want if they don't have something in stock, at least let them compete. Some aren't interested, and say go ahead and have it shipped,etc. But to ask a businessman to help you undercut his own sales by ordering in something he carries, wow.. That 10% is a backat'cha- and good for him, too.

Sales tax is likely not their decision. The $50 is a little high, but still reasonable given their time. The 10% "fee" for the fact that they may have gotten one in stock is flaky.

One of my local stores charges $20, plus nothing. Another store charges $50 and is cranky about it. Guess where I'd do business?

The guys that charge $20 have their store packed to the gills every weekend. The other place has one or two folks at a time and seems to be closed most weekends anymore.

kwick said:

Long time lurker, but had to point it out- I would never consider asking any of the lgs I use for transfers to transfer in a gun they have in stock. I even ask them to price what I want if they don't have something in stock, at least let them compete. Some aren't interested, and say go ahead and have it shipped,etc. But to ask a businessman to help you undercut his own sales by ordering in something he carries, wow.. That 10% is a backat'cha- and good for him, too.

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Well, let's see - they could make whatever their transfer fee is (say $40-50) for 1/2 hour work with almost no overhead - or make $0 dollars when your gun gets shipped to another FFL. If I was in business - I would take the $40.

Long time lurker, but had to point it out- I would never consider asking any of the lgs I use for transfers to transfer in a gun they have in stock. I even ask them to price what I want if they don't have something in stock, at least let them compete. Some aren't interested, and say go ahead and have it shipped,etc. But to ask a businessman to help you undercut his own sales by ordering in something he carries, wow.. That 10% is a backat'cha- and good for him, too.

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I've seen LGS's just refuse to take transfers of things they have in stock (or can get if requested). I can respect that, charging 10% and pretending everyone else does it is low.

Don't kid yourself if a LGS can't move something at an "acceptable" price due to low local demand they'll put it on gunbroker. Just like we'll run to Bud's if we can't find something locally at a price we like.

vamo - love your tag line. CSL a big fav of mine. Practical Faith (with an expressive capital "F").

If they charge $50 for a transfer fee, they're already signaling they're not interested in being a transfer type shop, they want to sell what they're carrying on the books. There are different business models/target clienteles, and they get to do it their way. I'd be inclined to do more transfers for less, myself- shouldn't be even 30 minutes effort. But if you had the chutzpah to get a gun shipped to me so I can help you undersell myself? Yeah, you'd pay. Ask first, give me a chance, we'll figure it out. Don't extend me that common courtesy in my own place? I won't miss you.

But what would be the right thing to do if they said "we charge 10% of the cost of the gun if we sell them and they are in stock"

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You have little choice. Either pay it or pay to have the gun returned and they will charge you for that too..

Honestly as more and more FFL's cannot compete with the internet due to distributor pricing schemes. I see transfers and other ancillary fees rising substantially for the few FFL's that stay in business.

While I currently enjoy free transfers of anything I purchase. I buy every single new gun through the same FFL and have for years and years. Plus being a CHL holder there is no need for a background check in my state.

kwick said:

If they charge $50 for a transfer fee, they're already signaling they're not interested in being a transfer type shop, they want to sell what they're carrying on the books. There are different business models/target clienteles, and they get to do it their way. I'd be inclined to do more transfers for less, myself- shouldn't be even 30 minutes effort. But if you had the chutzpah to get a gun shipped to me so I can help you undersell myself? Yeah, you'd pay. Ask first, give me a chance, we'll figure it out. Don't extend me that common courtesy in my own place? I won't miss you.

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The genie is out of the bottle when it comes to Internet commerce, and "mom and pop" stores will never be the same.

I will say that gun stores are in a BETTER position than others due to the transfers.

If I buy a vacuum cleaner on amazon, the guy who runs the vacuum shop in town will not get a penny.

However, if I buy a glock on gunbroker, one of the LGS is guaranteed to get $25-30 from me.....sounds like a good deal compared to the guy down the street who gets nothing.

Before ordering online I DID give them a chance to compete. As I stated before, they are my gun range and gun store.

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1) If that's the case, why would you not have known what their transfer fees are before you placed your online order?

2) California and Washington are the two states that currently require FFL's to collect use tax on the value of firearms that are purchased out of state and shipped in for transfer to the buyer. I expect more states to take notice of this untapped revenue stream and force transfer dealers to do it in the future, as legislators can legitimately claim "I didn't vote to raise your taxes..." even if they support it - and it's not something that the NRA would get involved with either, as it's a tax issue and not a gun rights issue.