Best low-penetration home defense round for a 1911?

Frangibles....

Some gunners & 1911a1 owners knock the "exotic" loads or frangibles.
They say these rounds are not powerful or will not function as described.

There is some merit to these claims with small firms & ammunition lines that will promise you the sun, the moon & the stars but fall way short.
A few "frangible" style .45acp can work correctly & could defend you/your family.
Brands like the .45acp SWAT from www.magsafeonline.com , the CorBon PowRball .45acp, the Glaser Safety Slug(silver), the Hornady TAP(tactical application police), the DRT, www.drtammo.com .
These special purpose loads reduce the chances of ricochets or excessive penetration which is good in home protection uses.
Now, over-penetration is a hotly debated topic & I won't go into detail here, but a frangible like the .45acp SWAT or Glaser Safety Slug(silver) could work well.
I'd add that many "old-salts" rail against new exotics saying the rounds do not feed or cycle correctly but these problems have been fixed in 2014.
Prices/$ were big gripes in the past too. Exotics are not cheap, but in 2014, the retail prices are not much different from most LE type JHPs like Ranger Ts, Critical Duty, Speer Gold Dot, HSTs, etc.
I put MagSafe SWAT .45acp in my Smith & Wesson M&P Compact last summer(2013). I put the 10 rounds in a S&W factory magazine(empty chamber).

Rusty
www.sgammo.com www.natchezss.com www.shopcorbon.com www.brownells.com www.midwayusa.com www.grafs.com

I am against the whole low penetration thing. If I am to use a firearm in self defense, I want it to reach the vitals, end of story. If a round is capable of reliably penetrating deep enough to eliminate a threat, it will go through a wall and still be dangerous coming out the other side. I say get the best round for the job, better to spend time in prison for hitting a neighbor with a stray bullet than to have somebody kill your children because you were afraid of over penetration and the round you picked didn't reach the vitals.

Edit: Your primary concern is protecting your family, don't sacrifice performance for perceived "safety". If a threat is likely to be positioned between you and your children, reconsider your living situation. The purpose of lethal force is to STOP a threat, and sadly that means destruction of tissue that is vital for life. Don't make the mistake of choosing a round the stops 1/4" short of stopping a threat and only wounds. Remember that handguns suck, and that is why I sleep next to a shotgun.

Many folk think that in home defense they don't need the penetration that law enforcement needs, but just in my house I can see situations where I may need to shoot through a wall to stop a threat, what if you are in your car and need to shoot through the door because some loon has road rage and wants to kill you.

skiking said:

I am against the whole low penetration thing. If I am to use a firearm in self defense, I want it to reach the vitals, end of story. If a round is capable of reliably penetrating deep enough to eliminate a threat, it will go through a wall and still be dangerous coming out the other side. I say get the best round for the job, better to spend time in prison for hitting a neighbor with a stray bullet than to have somebody kill your children because you were afraid of over penetration and the round you picked didn't reach the vitals.

Click to expand...

I gotta agree. First, the odds of you (anyone) ever having to shoot someone in your home are miniscule. Then, even if it happens, the odds of you using more than a round or two are also very small. And then, the odds of you missing the target, and having a round not hit a piece of furniture or something, instead going through a wall and hitting a family member, are also very small. The odds of a .45 going through two houses and hitting a neighbor are even smaller.
The point is that it would take SEVERAL huge statistical long-shots, for the purpose and advantage of these low-penetration rounds to even come into play.
Meanwhile you've substantially limited your effectiveness against an intruder.
That's my take on it,anyway .

I use Corbon 185 gr DPX

I tried a Glaser safety bullet once. At 30' was off nearly a foot . That was out of my Colt Commander. Stay with real bullets

I use winchester t series 230gr. I don't really think it makes that much of a dif. Most houses walls are drywall on both side. Have you ever shot drywall with fragmentable or any type of ammo. I live out in the country and have some decent land and built a range on it with proper backstops and all, anyways I get bored and like to experiment. I have set up two pieces of drywall and set water jugs 7 feet behind them. I stood 10 feet away and no matter what type of 45acp round I shot(hp, fmj, frag, lead) they all put holes in the water jugs. If you hit the studs different story.

As for hitting neighbors thats different as well, not only does the bullet have to go thru your inside walls, outside walls, siding, cedar, brick or whatever is on the outside then it has to go thru your neighbors, its not like you are shooting 556 steel core ammo.

I am not nor do I claim to be an expert in ballistics just telling you what I have done in my own backyard

In terms of accuracy, I have had good experience with the Federal EFMJs in 9mm+P and 45. I'll leave the penetration calculations to you.

Here's a Fed EFMJ 45acp penetration test (including bone simulation) from brassfetcher out of a Glock 36 (less than 4" barrel). Penetration goes from 8.8" in bare gel to a high of 12.3 after impacting the bone sim.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/45ACP/45ACP Bone Test.pdf

Here's a youtube vid with 12.5" penetration out of a 5" barrel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmZKgNy7is4

This comes up all the time. People are always trying to find a round that will adequately penetrate a person, but won't penetrate through walls.

That magical round doesn't exist. You can search high and low throughout all the corners of the world until your last breath, you won't find it.

Instead, you could take preventative measures to reduce the chances of a round exiting your house. Practicing as much as you can to actually hit your target is step one. But statistically you're sure to miss a few rounds. We can hope and pray we don't miss, but we might and that's just reality. So step 2 is to set up "shooting lanes" in your house, and to reinforce walls surrounding these lanes so that they catch stray bullets.

It is unlikely that a .45 acp round ,especially a modern hollowpoint will pass through a bad guy and still have enough energy to be lethal . I would like to see a test where they shout through a water jug first and then through drywall . The best thing you can do to ensure your families safety is practice so that your shots are effective and strike their intended target ! Kevin

Inside most common houses it's not going to matter. I had a job at one time that required going in and repairing bullet holes in rental houses in a bad town. In almost every case I saw the bullets went through walls with no problem unless they hit a heavy pipe or steel beam. There are no bullets that will be stopped by a 2X4 and sheetrock wall that you would really want to depend on to stop a bad guy quickly. I have also personally tested just about every brand of hollow point bullet available in jugs of water and other barriers and they all went through 3 jugs and stayed in the fourth jug. I wouldn't bet on any of them staying inside a bad guy and not exiting. I shot some 200 gr. .45 ACP SWC loaded at 700 fps. into a row of 8 water jugs and they went through all of them and into the berm. Do not rely on walls to slow or stop bullets unless all of the walls in your house is made of cinder blocks and brick.

"I don't want to shoot my kids or neighbors." Nobody disputes that. Safety first.

How do you prevent it? You look to your fields of fire in the home, and figure out which aren't the best to discharge a weapon. If it's thru an outside wall into your neighbor's bedroom, don't shoot that way.

Of course, since the threat is likely navigating the hallway or opposite your closed and locked door, consider carefully - why would you be shooting thru an outside wall at your neighbors? You'd be directing fire at the perps on the other side of the door. I don't see low penetration rounds as the best answer there.

Is your kids bedroom directly opposite that doorway? Bunk beds up against that wall? Time to rearrange things if it's really a concern. Most don't, because most "home defense against invasion" posts are usually fictional fodder. Why? Because scoping out fields of fire is the FIRST answer, not worrying about downloading your ammo. It's ignoring a major tactical principle - defending your home in the best way - and accepting some seriously flawed mistakes, like, blasting away with no regard to what the backstop is.

Failure of the basic rules of shooting. You don't aim and shoot where your kids and neighbors are sheltering.

It goes in the other direction, too - where are the perps going to be shooting? Are you putting family into the line of fire, or having them already situated where they aren't going to be? Once you proof out where you can shoot, reverse it, and see where return fire will likely go. No sense having the wife and kids downrange behind you.

Lots of things to consider in close quarters defense. And there's no rule the perps won't show up with a rifle or shotgun. Penetration in the interior construction of the typical American home is a guarantee, and there's very little to do for it by just downloading the power of your ammo. It's basically a useless gesture.

Since the average bullet can and will penetrate more than a foot, even sandbagging the interior walls and lining them with a library's worth of old hard back books won't help that much.

Better to prevent being a target in the first place. The three primary causes of having your home invaded are stealing drugs from your dealer, harboring a thugs girlfriend, or simple mistake. In every case, they are coming thru a door or window. What are you doing to attract them? What can you do to prevent them entry?

Better to address ordering your life as to why they are even there, and most of the risk will be addressed up front. Low powered ammo isn't the answer.

How do others secure their homes? In other communities, heavy grates over the windows, poured concrete construction, walls around the compound, and roll down shutters are common. Not only for commercial construction, but home use.

If home defense is really being considered, then stick-built sheetrock and siding construction is a joke. Nobody uses it in second and third tier countries where society has been going thru violent episodes. Solid masonry is the rule.

Look to moving to a decent neighborhood, and building an earthquake and hurricane proof home. Otherwise, American home defense is basically not going to happen. If it's easy enough for an EF1 to flatten your house, it's useless against some serious thugs.

It's why armed guards don't deliver cash in a mini van.

Yes & no....

The recent posts made some good points but Id still go by the use of well made, proven frangibles like MagSafe, Glaser Safety Slugs, etc.
SWAT units, DoC(corrections), nuclear power structures(security/force protection), the Royal Hong Kong police, etc all use frangibles for a good reason. They reduce the chances of a .45acp bullet or fragments striking another person or by-stander in a lethal force event.
Are these rounds "magic" or "perfect"? no
But with marksmanship training & proper tactics, they can work correctly.
As noted, for the .45acp, you could get a DPX, PDX1, Ranger T/T Series, Speer Gold Dot 230gr +P, etc too if you want a good defense load.

Why would you want something for self defense that is billed as being low penetration?

Like we tell the "Use birdshot in your home defense shotgun" people...Birdshot, or pistol rounds like the Glaser Safety Slug and MagSafe that contain birdshot, do not penetrate deeply enough to reliably stop a human attacker, not to mention that the exotic pistol rounds have a bad reputation for mediocre accuracy and are expensive to shoot.

If using a 1911 in .45 ACP for home defense, full power 185 Grain JHPs would be the absolute minimum, and that would be based on if they were feeding reliably from my particular 1911. Some 1911s will barely feed 230 Ball.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Typical interior walls of wood stud and gyp board will not stop bullets of conventional design. Solid FMJ's zip right through, JHP's clog with gypsum and act like FMJ's. The expensive pre-fragmented rounds like Glasers and Magsafes will in theory fragment after penetrating intermittent barriers but spray the other side with their pellets.

Your better off with a good JHP defense load that functions in your pistol. Practice so you can hit what you aim at.

Do some thinking about your fields of fire and how you arrange your kids beds etc. Add a good set of night sights so you can aim under both normal lighting an low light conditions. Use night lights to give illumination to areas where an intruder is likely to appear but allows you the defender to remain cloaked in darkness. With the new LED night lights you can burn them 24/365 at .3W and use less than 1/2 a dollar in power per year. A well stocked bookshelf on the wall in between your potential field of fire and the kids bedroom will stop most handgun bullets as paper is a pretty good bullet stopper.

Most people assume that a threat will materialize at night time but this isn't always the case and a home invasion can occur any time. Burglaries are more often carried out during working hours when most homeowners are away at work and the kids are in school.

I guess I will weigh in, beyond the links and positive comment on accuracy (above).

Federal 45 EFMJ: 12"+ penetration out of a 5" barrel, expansion to .825", reliable expansion, smaller chance of pass-through, even when impacting bone ...

I would feel comfortable with it in my 1911.

Mitlov, google theboxotruth, scroll down near the bottom of the home page and click on "Original Chapters" and start with #'s 1, 3 & 7. Then go buy some Federal HST's. Or fill your walls with sand.

Oh yeah. And everything Tirod said (in post #11).

Know whats behind your target and pick the JHP that is the most accurate in your pistol.

Mitlov said:

Up to this point, I've solely shot FMJ ammo at the range from my 1911. Given the reputation that 230 grain FMJ has for going and going and going through walls, though, and given that I've got kids in my house, I like my neighbors, etc, I'd like something a bit less over-penetration-prone for home defense. I didn't see any threads on this topic; sorry if I missed them.

Two options that a brief internet search raised were Federal's Guard Dogs (expanding full metal jacket) and Corbon's Blaser Safety Slugs (frangible). Any personal experiences or opinions with either? Are there other options I should be considering as well?

Click to expand...

Given the fact that you want a defensive round that must be capable of incapacitating an assailant within your home while mitigating penetration should the round exit the assailant's body, or worse yet miss it altogether, you might wish to consider using the lightest JHP (that is not a frangible design) that you can find. If a round won't make it through a typical residential wall, odds are that it won't produce enough penetration to make it to vital organs in an assailant either. Mitigating penetration, which is a function of sectional density (and velocity), will have to be accomplished by choosing a lighter bullet since slowing a heavier one down will likely inhibit expansion which is something that you want to retain -as another mechanism by which to mitigate penetration.

In descending order of preference, the best options I could find that aren't frangible designs are:

1.) the Corbon .45ACP 160 gr. DPX JHP (DPX45160)
2.) the Federal .45ACP 165 gr GuardDog EFMJ (PD45GRD)
3.) the CorBon/Glaser .45ACP 165 gr Pow'rBall JHP (PB45165)
4.) the Federal .45ACP 165 gr Hydra Shok JHP (PD45HS3)

230gr HST or Gold Dot standard pressure rounds and be aware of safe shooting directions.

Use a 9mm makarov JHP. It is like 380 on steroids the perfect defense caliber in my opinion.

Wow, everyone has an opinion and after reading all the reply's I still wonder if a 12g with a taser round is not the right choice at least for the first two then 00buckshot. Hopefully none of us will ever be in the situation where it makes a difference if we use hollow points, fmj, 180 gr 230 gr and while I really like my neighbors I like my children more so if I had to choose, my kids come first. Saying that, I am a revolver guy with a .38 ending up in my night stand. Too many stove pipes in all those autos I own to trust one with my life. Old school I guess and I understand the capacity disadvantage.

Think about the children....

It's nice to read about your concern for your children but your neighbors, by-standers, etc are important too.
As a gun owner/armed citizen, you are responsible & accountable for every round you fire in a home defense/lethal force event.

There's no "hey, so what" or "I'm more worried about my family then anyone living around me."
The forum member's topic is valid & his rational is sound. To look for a home protection round that is practical yet not a major problem for neighbors/by-standers is completely understandable.
As posted, he could purchase a well made frangible or a high quality LE type JHP .45acp like a DPX, Speer Gold Dot +P, HST 230gr +P, etc.

RS