Miculek says: stop sending the wrong message with open carry activism

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It would appear they had accomplices with them. I know when I hang out with gun folks, I prefer to hang out with people with middle names like "gunrunner" :barf:

I apologize for the size issue.

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Originally Posted by DBR:
I think "in your face" behavior is counter productive for any cause.
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I guess you haven't been paying attention to the progress gays have made? Maybe we need OC Pride Parades?
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GLBT's didn't get equal rights by marching into church services and restaurants dressed like slobs and taking selfies of themselves making out in front of people. They did it by going about their everyday business like normal people and quietly advocating for equal treatment under the law. Yes, there were some loudmouths and flamboyant idiots in their movement, but the equal-rights-for-GLBT's movement didn't make much headway until they managed to keep the flamboyant idiots from being the public face of their movement. It was when the public at large came to accept that GLBT's are almost exclusively regular, responsible people like you and me, and *not* exhibitionists in chaps, that they succeeded.

Gun owners need to do the same. Childish and immature "look at me" behavior that aims to get in people's faces and disrupt their day is totally and completely counterproductive.
 
This topic hits me hard. Like many folks here, I too want to live in a country where people are not bleating like frightened sheep every time they see an "evil" black rifle or some person with a good piece of personal protection equipment. Unfortunately, we are not there yet as a society. There has been way too much programing and fear mongering from the opposition to just, casually, stroll in the local burreatery and start acting like a bunch of Berkley Activists with Firepower. That is NOT going to solve this problem or make it any better.
I do think that ORGANIZED, PLANNED and COORDINATED WITH POLICE Open Carry Events can make a difference. When folks see the local cops interacting with rather than confronting folks who are open carrying, it makes a real and positive impact.
To act like a d-bag with a rifle in a public place is just begging for bad press and knee jerk reactions. I had an email exchange with Chipotle because I was hoping to help them understand that there are a lot of us out here who carry (I happen to carry concealed) and do not rely on the Police to protect us or our families.
There reply was polite and professional but it is also apparent that the black rifle fear wiped out any chances of open and intelligent discussion.
See their reply below:

Reagan,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Chipotle has never taken a position on the issue, as we have focused on our mission to change the way people think about and eat fast food. Recently there was a demonstration in Texas where people brought guns (including military-style assault rifles) into one restaurant, causing anxiety and discomfort. Due to this event we are respectfully asking that customers not bring guns into the restaurant unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel. We appreciate our customers honoring our request. We appreciate you writing in, and we hope to see you soon.

Sincerely,
Ashley

Customer Service Consultant
Chipotle Mexican Grill

Thanks to the 'tarded duo, this one is lost for quite a while. Just like SBs, they really didn't care prior but now are put in a position where they are going to run to the "popular" stance because the "popular" stance makes more noise. Sadly, the very people they will attempt to placate are the same ones who will, probably, tell their kids not to eat there because of the evils or trans-fats.

Sad,
Doc
 
When we were "activists" here in Washington we carried our handguns openly on our belts in a holster. We were well within the law to do so. We could carry a long gun openly and be inside the law as well, but I never saw anyone do it outside of a rally at the Capitol.

Texans do not have that option as handgun open carry is illegal in Texas. So they have to carry rifles to protest.

I don't endorse what I see in that picture- especially since there are ways to carry a rifle openly that is respectful of others. I found that here in Washington, a large majority of the pro-gun people didn't have the balls to protest in a legal manner- so protesting in an illegal manner wouldn't even be a consideration.

You have to ask yourselves, would you carry a pistol openly in Texas, in defiance of the law, to protest what you consider an illegal overreach of government? Probably not. So we wring our hands and lament the theft of our rights while doing nothing to stop it. Criticizing the yahoos out on the extreme edge is easy, and at times fun, but not constructive.
 
I agree with benEzra's post and analysis.

Being obnoxious may feel good if you're really emotionally charged up about an issue, but it makes ZERO new friends. The way to win a public issue debate is to make new friends.
 
Mainsail said:
You have to ask yourselves, would you carry a pistol openly in Texas, in defiance of the law, to protest what you consider an illegal overreach of government? Probably not. So we wring our hands and lament the theft of our rights while doing nothing to stop it. Criticizing the yahoos out on the extreme edge is easy, and at times fun, but not constructive.
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??? Are you under the impression that open carry demonstrations are the sole means of advancing a pro-2nd-amendment cause?

And the actions of these morons are the very definition of "fun [for them], but not constructive." Whether something is constructive or not isn't a theoretical concept. It's readily measured - indeed, defined - by the results achieved. Here, the results achieved were the opposite of what is desired. Therefore and inarguably, the actions of the pictured dimwits was counterproductive - negatively constructive.

Even if the only thing accomplished by criticizing them is to discourage other people from making their mistake, then that is constructive enough to justify the exercise of metaphorically pillorying them.
 
benEzra said:
GLBT's didn't get equal rights by marching into church services and restaurants dressed like slobs and taking selfies of themselves making out in front of people. They did it by going about their everyday business like normal people and quietly advocating for equal treatment under the law. Yes, there were some loudmouths and flamboyant idiots in their movement, but the equal-rights-for-GLBT's movement didn't make much headway until they managed to keep the flamboyant idiots from being the public face of their movement. It was when the public at large came to accept that GLBT's are almost exclusively regular, responsible people like you and me, and *not* exhibitionists in chaps, that they succeeded.

Gun owners need to do the same. Childish and immature "look at me" behavior that aims to get in people's faces and disrupt their day is totally and completely counterproductive.
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But it was the Gay Pride Parades that got the movement started. It may have evolved into reasonable discourse, but it all started with "We're Here, We're Queer and in your Face".
 
HexHead said:
But it was the Gay Pride Parades that got the movement started.
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Even if true, irrelevant. We already have a quite robust pro-gun movement in this country. Everybody - including the anti-gunners - are aware that guns and pro-gun people exist.
 
Sam1911 said:
I guess you haven't been paying attention to the progress gays have made? Maybe we need OC Pride Parades?
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Frank Ettin has posted a very good demolition of that comparison. The gay rights movement has had a significant set of additional elements which we don't have and which lent weight and credibility to their more outrageous, in-your-face protest actions. ...
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Sam, thank you. And for the record, what I wrote on the subject is:
...
  • ...

    2. Several things in particular that argue against that notion with regard to homosexuality:

    • There has been and is considerable sympathy in the straight community for gay rights. Many people actively participating in gay rights demonstrations and active in the struggle for gay rights were straight. On the other hand, how many non-gun owners actively support the RKBA?

    • There has been significant support for gay rights from mainstream media, academia and even some influential religious organizations.

    • The gay rights movement was tremendously helped by the fact that it turns out that many gays were well liked, well regarded, prominent and influential public figures (especially in the arts), all of whom had well established public personae independent of their sexual orientation prior to the revelation that they are gay.

    • Many of those gay public figures are also extremely affluent and have been able to pour considerable money into support of politicians who support gay rights. (And many of those public figures are also using their money and influence to promote gun control.)

    • Various public demonstrations promoting gay rights did not include showing up with and displaying loaded guns....
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HexHead said:
...But it was the Gay Pride Parades that got the movement started. It may have evolved into reasonable discourse, but it all started with "We're Here, We're Queer and in your Face"....
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Let's see some evidence. It's my recollection that those demonstrations were hardly the starting point. Indeed, they were more in celebration of the progress made.
 
The Gun Ownership tent is a big tent with everyone from the basic gun enthusiast to militant RKBA supporters all with the freedom to believe in their version of the 2nd amendment.

A fellow gun owner's actions may not agree with my perception of intelligent behavior but I sure as hell ain't sympathetic to a Corporation that licks their finger and sticks it the air to see which way the PC wind blows.

I make no claims to be a super thinker strategist but this one step forward two steps back shuffle we've been doing may pacify some in the ranks but IMHO we won't see real RKBA acceptance without the militants because the lobbyist are just in it for the money.
 
Willie Sutton said:
Another "win" for the open carry idiots.

Not every gun owner is your friend.


Willie

.
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No, not every gun owner is your friend. Some are mental cases, some are criminals and some are just dumb azzes. This was a simple case of dumb azzes. This was not an act of a responsible gun owners exercising their right to OC, but done solely for the purpose of making a spectacle and becoming headline news.....and it worked. Now, even responsible gun owners continue the stupidity by continuing to post pictures of the idiots on the internet. The bozos got their 15 minutes of fame and then some, and now with the continued posting and re-posting of their pictures, we are giving the impression to others that we all look and act like that. Doing exactly what the antis would do. Another thing the antis would do is to make folks think that all responsible gun owners act this way, and sadly many pro-gun folks on gun forums are doing the same. By claiming that those few acted the way the majority of folks that open carry act.....which is not even close to the truth. The majority of responsible gun owners that OC would not carry long guns into a restaurant and brandish/flourish them in the ready position with their finger on the trigger guard. Yet, many gun forum posters are blaming all OCers for these irresponsible actions and that all OCers are "idiots", and then have the gall to claim OCers are our own worst enemy. No different than saying all gun owners are responsible for Sandy Hook.
 
huntsman said:
I make no claims to be a super thinker strategist but this one step forward two steps back shuffle we've been doing may pacify some in the ranks but IMHO we won't see real RKBA acceptance without the militants because the lobbyist are just in it for the money.
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What are you talking about? Gun rights (especially regarding carry) are generally more recognized and protected today than any time in the past 100 years. The "militants" are, however, causing private corporations, who have a right to control their own property, to turn against us. Steady pressure, not obnoxious outbursts, are a strategy that has been working. This OC'ing of rifles in suburban areas has, in contrast, been generating nothing but terrible results. You don't have to be a strategic genius to realize which strategy is the one to support and participate in.
 
Mainsail said:
Texans do not have that option as handgun open carry is illegal in Texas. So they have to carry rifles to protest.
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This is as usual not true. There is of course a way around that law, in a particular way that is appropriately suited to Texas.

It would be perfectly legal to open carry this in a holster:

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Of course, I believe it firmly beyond the capabilities of those ignorant slobs to work some Texas heritage into their protest.
 
Criticizing the yahoos out on the extreme edge is easy, and at times fun, but not constructive.
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If their idiotic methods are not criticized, it may be seen as a tacit approval of them by the rest of the gun owning community.
 
ATLDave said:
??? Are you under the impression that open carry demonstrations are the sole means of advancing a pro-2nd-amendment cause?
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I have no idea where you’re seeing that. You're making a straw-man argument, so that statement is pretty silly.

When we were “activists” …(activists is in quotes because we were not necessarily activists, just wearing our handguns legally while nonchalantly going about our business).

Anyway, when we peacefully protested (and protest is even strong) we were not protesting for gun rights per se, but protesting the police view that anyone with a gun was automatically a suspect. We were protesting the public’s paradigm that guns were evil and only criminals carried them. We showed another side to gun carry, peaceful and casual, and we got compliments instead of derision (by 99% to 1%). Gun rights benefitted more as a side-effect. Most of the open carry demonstrations in WA now are held on the Capitol grounds and are related to gun legislation- so it’s not quite the same now.

Even if the only thing accomplished by criticizing them is to discourage other people ....
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You're on dangerous ground there. The majority of gun owners are not teetering on the fence about carrying a rifle openly in protest, and need you to come along and push them back. Stupid is already discouraging enough. You are not my mom, I don’t need your discouragement or encouragement on the issue and neither does anyone else I suspect.

Criticizing it isn’t constructive in that it doesn’t help move our agenda. They want open carry in Texas for a number of reasons, and full open carry is only one of them. It’s hot down there, like freaking hot, and inadvertent exposure due to wind or bending should not have the stigma it does. Open carry benefits that agenda. The specific way they're doing it (long guns and facebook) isn't. Find a way that is.
 
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JN01 said:
If their idiotic methods are not criticized, it may be seen as a tacit approval of them by the rest of the gun owning community.
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Agreed. Think about the issue of Islamic terrorism. When a Muslim terrorist blows up some people, some are quick to point out that such people don't represent all Muslims. The counter-argument is usually, "Where, then, is the Muslim outcry against such behavior? Where are the protests against al Queda on the Arab street?" The lack of clear and unequivocal denunciation by a group of something done in the name of that group is taken as tacit approval of the action in question.
 
ATLDave said:
What are you talking about? Gun rights (especially regarding carry) are generally more recognized and protected today than any time in the past 100 years. The "militants" are, however, causing private corporations, who have a right to control their own property, to turn against us. Steady pressure, not obnoxious outbursts, are a strategy that has been working. This OC'ing of rifles in suburban areas has, in contrast, been generating nothing but terrible results. You don't have to be a strategic genius to realize which strategy is the one to support and participate in.
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Is CA, NY, NJ, CT in a better position for Gun rights?

So the only plan of action is to continue to cut checks to whatever .org tells you they are the true path to RKBA?
 
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@ ben ezra

"GLBT's didn't get equal rights by marching into church services and restaurants dressed like slobs and taking selfies of themselves making out in front of people. They did it by going about their everyday business like normal people and quietly advocating for equal treatment under the law. Yes, there were some loudmouths and flamboyant idiots in their movement, but the equal-rights-for-GLBT's movement didn't make much headway until they managed to keep the flamboyant idiots from being the public face of their movement. It was when the public at large came to accept that GLBT's are almost exclusively regular, responsible people like you and me, and *not* exhibitionists in chaps, that they succeeded."



REALLY = guess you have not seen the "parades" and the IN YOU FACE stuff that is on the boob tube and on most shows these days ?.

I do not agree with the same thing done to promote the EDC of a tool for S/D.

But your point is far off the mark = as I have witnessed for the past few decades of that being SHOVED in my face.

"
 
tomrkba said:
Americans have become very, very tyrannical in their behavior toward people who exercise their rights ("There oughta be a law!"). Many of us seek to criticize anyone who expresses a right in a manner in which they do not approve. Sometimes it is open carry. Do these guys look like great representatives? Of course not. But they are not the problem: WE ARE THE PROBLEM. We have allowed too many anti-gun laws to be created and now we have to dig ourselves out. Open carry is one such method.

We do not demonstrate in large numbers (or with much frequency) for our gun rights. We sit back and let the NRA do the work. We certainly didn't show up in 2012 for Romney (despite being a socialist and signing bad gun laws, he was better than Obama on the right to keep and bear arms). Like it or not, they are normalizing carry. The open carry movement started working against local governments and police who actively suppressed OC. This has also resulted in several states passing premption laws to prevent localities from passing local gun laws. My state, Virginia, now has uniform laws that make carry from county to county a breeze. I do not have to worry about catching a felony because I crossed an invisible line.

You have no ability to stop people from lawfully open carrying. You will be voting against the right to keep and bear arms if you encourage legislatures across the country to ban open carry. This will surely lead to additional bad laws that are tacked on to such bills.

I highly suggest that if you do not like open carry that you should join an open carry group. Rather than criticize, you should encourage them to do so in a respectful and useful way. You are not required to open carry and I attend such gatherings while carrying concealed. Put away the long guns (except in Texas), dress up, hand out cards and pamphlets, wear "Guns save lives!" buttons and so forth. Make sure it looks like a peaceful gathering on First Amendment grounds rather than a motley militia of fools.
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This is an excellent point. Part of the problem is that not enough people open carry so that the norm for open carry is "not acceptable at all" even among shooters. If open carry was more common, an acceptable standard for open carry would be established that was not as extreme as the example set by these two neophytes. Currently, there isn't a large enough group practicing open carry to establish the peer pressure needed to moderate behavior
 
ClickClickD'oh said:
This is as usual not true. There is of course a way around that law, in a particular way that is appropriately suited to Texas.

It would be perfectly legal to open carry this in a holster:

DA00052.jpg


Of course, I believe it firmly beyond the capabilities of those ignorant slobs to work some Texas heritage into their protest.
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I think you’re getting hung up on the word protest. Like I said, we just wore our handgun in a holster with the attitude it was no different than wearing a watch or a lapel pin. I don’t normally carry a hog-leg like that, so I wouldn’t wear it just to make a point.

I agree that there are better ways to do it, but I don’t know what options Texans have because I am unfamiliar with their laws.
 
REALLY = guess you have not seen the "parades" and the IN YOU FACE stuff that is on the boob tube and on most shows these days ?.
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There are gay pride parades on your TV most days?

What channels do you subscribe to, anyway? :eek:
 
ClickClickD'oh said:
Inadvertent exposure of a conceal firearm is not unlawful.
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If you want to contribute please do. Straw-man arguments like that don’t help at all. I never said it was illegal, and chose the word stigma specifically because of that. Are you agreeing with the rest of my post and only objecting to that, or were you unable to refute my argument and focused on that one statement (wrongly too) as a last gasp?
 
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