Holding the slide while the shot goes off

What if his gun is pointed at your head? Then you will be shot when you draw your own gun.

I think the point of this exercise is to disable the gun, and then either wrestle the gun from the BG, or to draw your own gun while holding tightly to his with your one hand. This is meant to give you the opportunity to get a chance to draw your own gun, even if he manages to pull his free from your grip. He must then first rack the slide of his own gun before it will fire, hopefully giving you enough time to draw yours and fire.
This is how I see it. It seems like a good idea to me. I was just not sure if you can really grab a slide like that. It is easy to make a video like that with much reduced loads. But it seems doable.
The video I looked at did not have sound, just music, so the guy only explained by showing you. Not a word was said.

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Sounds like you've made up your mind. Let us know how it goes when you try it.

The parachute example is completely off base. I can also make up random odds of things that will happen when you try different things. You're telling me that I have a 7 out of 8 chance of getting killed if I push a gun away from being pointed at me while I hold the slide, but a only a 50/50 chance of dying if I instead try to attack the person holding the gun (who is at least a little more than an arms reach away) while he can point his gun in any direction because there is nothing to prevent him from doing so? Sounds like if anything you have your "statistics" backwards...

On a side note, if you drive at any time today in your car, you have 2 boxes.
Box a; full of marshmallows, cotton balls, fluffy playful kittens and belly button lint
Box b; alligators and live grenades.

Box a is if you go under the speed limit at all times, while box b is if you speed or read a text or change the radio station. Obviously with box b you will die so I suggest 10 and 2 driving with no other people in the car at all times. Obviously the more safer of the 2...

Mel Gibson is an actor with no qualifications other than handlers coached him on the set.

It's basically a Hollywood/Ninja discussion, somehow it's tolerated outside of PracTac where the real discussion would be "How did you get into the situation in the first place?"

I had a well trained LEO demonstrate the technique against my empty upraised M9. Gone in a second. I asked why would I even let him get that close without shooting, and he smiled, acknowledging that I had gotten the point.

Fine on the home screen, stupid on the street. Goes to the question - how did you get into the situation in the first place?

I'm sure many speculative posters could outline a number of ways, all of which would insult their intelligence had I posed them as a possibility to them.

If Practical Tactical techniques are being discussed there, I doubt I could wedge a post in fast enough before it was overwhelmed with others. Let's leave it at this: it requires not doing a lot of more important things for this to be possible.

It completely leaves out the appropriate counterstrikes and disabling blows the attacker is vulnerable to. Better to study martial arts and gain an understanding of the reality.

OP: I would certainly look for a way to fire my gun into my attacker before I worried about a disarm attempt. e.g. If a mugger holds me up and asks for my money I can feign fear and scream, "Oh please God don't kill me! Here, this is everything I have!" Then I would pretend like I was reaching for my wallet then I would draw and shoot them while they were expecting me to hand them my wallet. That isn't good enough odds for me, but that is the best I have if they aren't in arm's reach.

If they are in arm's reach I would probably still try to fake them out the same way but I would push their gun arm to the side while I drew. That would at least get me out of the line of fire while I drew and fired at them.

As far as disarming them, it is better to just take the gun away than it is to grab the slide, wait for them to fire, then fight them. They might realize their gun isn't pointed at you and then choose to not fire the gun until they have successfully aimed the muzzle back at you.

Fast disarm video

A Krav Maga instructor showed me how to disable someone drawing a weapon (knife or handgun) by simply running toward their weapon arm and then bear-hugging their elbow while you press your body against their forearm. Then you just rotate your body away from theirs and because they don't want their elbow to bend backwards they eat the floor and their weapon arm is trapped against your chest. You are then free to set your knee on the back of their neck until they decide to let go of their weapon.

I would take a Krav Maga course and try to find ways to make sure the muzzle never crosses your body instead of studying the riskiest disarms first.

I'm a noob, though. I'm just speaking purely from a logical standpoint... not from experience.

It seems like a good idea to me.

Next to "hold my beer and watch this," those may well be some of the best known last words in modern human history.

For example, a number of semiauto pistol designs will not fire if the slide is even a little out of battery - as in, jammed hard against another person's body. Most "gun people" know that. How many thugs do? I don't know, but most folks who know anything about using a handgun are not going to place said handgun within reach of another person when threatening that other person with it.

As has been said, holding a slide closed on a semiauto is no big deal - it's easily done. But doing so while being threatened with that same gun by a stranger is NOT exactly a low risk proposition. In fact, it's basically very high risk. Stopping the second shot is not going to help with the first bullet ...

IIRC, the Secret Service folks are trained to grab the gun around the top and put their thumb or thumb web in front of the hammer. That was reportedly done by the agent protecting Ford when "Squeaky" Fromme tried to kill him. In a crowd like that, the agent will not draw and fire because doing so would endanger innocent people, both from his own shots and from shots the attempted assassin might fire even if fatally shot. So the idea is to stop the gun from being fired, not just to redirect the fire away from the agent or the VIP.

Jim

IIRC, the Secret Service folks are trained to grab the gun around the top and put their thumb or thumb web in front of the hammer.

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That was from back in revolver times. I don't know if that is still included in modern training. After all, how many modern semi-automatic pistols even have exposed hammers (or hammers at all?)

If you are focusing on the gun you are not focusing on the real threat. The real threat is the human who wants to kill you. You could grab the slide, gun goes off then jams, get control of the gun...as he beats you to death.

I'm not going to pretend that a life or death struggle is easy, but it is simple. Simply focus on injuring them until there is no longer a threat. If they do that to you first, there is nothing more you could have done.

Worrying about technique this and counter-strike that and the gun blah, blah just adds more obstacles in front of the only thing that will actually make a difference. Breaking body parts. Get that done ASAP, via any way you can.

So, to come full circle back to an armed threat w/in arms reach. Step in and break something, make sure you rotate out of the field of fire as you are doing so. Keep breaking somethings until they aren't a threat anymore.

Look at the baseball bat video thread posted, watch his initial movement, the other guy could have had a handgun, knife, rifle or just a punch. Either way, the initial movement made that all moot, just start breaking things once you are inside.

The parachute example is completely off base. I can also make up random odds of things that will happen when you try different things. You're telling me that I have a 7 out of 8 chance of getting killed if I push a gun away from being pointed at me while I hold the slide, but a only a 50/50 chance of dying if I instead try to attack the person holding the gun (who is at least a little more than an arms reach away) while he can point his gun in any direction because there is nothing to prevent him from doing so? Sounds like if anything you have your "statistics" backwards...

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I apologize for my failure to specify that this was just a scenario intended to illustrate a point. Apparently you're the only one who missed that, but no problem.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are a far greater number of opportunities for failure when comparing grabbing a gun (1), diverting that gun away from my body (2), and using that time to grab my own gun (3), and shooting my attacker(4) with simply drawing my gun (1) and shooting my attacker (2). Are the odds 50% versus 12%? Probably not.

Yes, there would probably be a number of unknown factors contributing to the situation, but at the root of it all, we're comparing a risky four-step plan with a risky two-step plan; and mistakes could happen at any point along the way in either case. The first option necessarily includes everything in the second option, plus other steps, so it's absurd to say the first option is less of a risk.

Look, as someone mentioned here "Last Resort".....that means to me, anything goes....even biting his ear off....ala Mike Tyson if need be.

Don't get derailed guys I'm interested in this thread and don't want it to get locked lol.

Regarding the holding slide of a gun... not a great idea for reasons mentioned above.

If you are caught off guard and find yourself with a gun pointed at you within one step...

#1 Drawing your own gun is pointless, you will get shot. You have a 1-2 second draw time and the bad guy has a .1 second reaction time (average). You are TOAST.

#2 Compliance and de-escalation are your friends, use them first. Your wallet or car keys aren't worth your life. (Besides you may gain an opportunity to draw and fire with the distraction they provide; see here for a real world example against multiple attackers that WORKED: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f6e_1392219642)

If you think they are going to kill you anyway... and distraction and de-escalation aren't working (or the odds are way against you)...

Remember that humans have an average of .1 second response time. I catch people on this all the time when sparring (martial arts) - the person with the initiative can do amazing (and very ugly) things at close contact distances before the other can respond, even if they are expecting it.

Attack the weapon. By this I mean either the gun or the human meat-bag behind it. People can't shoot if they can't see, poke 'em in the eye. If you contest their weapon ALSO do something to hurt them with the other hand (you DO have two of them).

Pushing the gun aside and delivering an elbow to the throat/jaw/neck area can do spectacular things. I took out a guy with a knife this way once (for real, defending my life.) Put hard parts on soft parts.

The soft parts to reach are eyes, throat, nose (makes eyes water, can't see). Solar plexus strikes are great too (shocks the diaphram) but it requires training to hit accurately and the shock can be overcome if you HAVE training. Genitals are NOT reliable enough - depending on the physical state of the attacker might have no effect or actually "hulk them up" (I used to use the term "retard strong" for this but I'm trying to be more politically correct these days.)

In a hand to hand fight you have other options; knees, etc, but I train people on those to escape a hand to hand conflict - damage the other so they can't chase after you. In a gun fight that isn't an option because you can't outrun the bullet.

So remember, knock the gun aside (try to keep it from pointing at you, hand on wrist or gun continuing to push it aside) and using the other free hand HIT THE SOFT PARTS HARD AND REPEATEDLY. You have time to do this even if you are one step away because of human reaction time; by the time they realize they are in trouble, it's too late.

Human reflex is going to mess them all up here. Predator turned prey throws people off and human nature will make you DROP things uncontrollably to protect your vision and throat area.

An attacker cannot effectively engage you if they cannot see or breathe.

Holding the slide over the ejection port to prevent movement while the gun discharges will only result in a black carbon mark on your hand. The purpose is to redirect the muzzle so the bullet will not hit you and prevent another round from being chambered. Since your hand is on the gun, the fight is already within contact distance and the solution does not initially involve your holstered weapon. Attend SouthNarc's ECQC course for all the relevant details.

Sounds like a Hollywood fantasy best left to Jet Li. Consider the guy with the gun has a handle with a secure grip, and the defender is trying to grab a thin, mostly smooth surface from the business end. Not going to end well. Think about if you were hold the gun and someone attempted this maneuver. It would be super easy to withdraw the gun 6" while pulling the trigger - in a microsecond.

If a person has the hand strength, quickness, and precision to grab and hold a pistol slide out of battery, on a presumably aware opponent intent on shooting, then that person would likely be more successful with some form of disarm technique, or an offensive technique design to incapacite the gun-wielder. I'm thinking to block the gun hand/sidestep the gun, and a very strong shot to the wrist to break the wrist, or the throat to immediately send the guy into next week (having been hit square in the throat once, that becomes your entire focus and all else is meaningless).

So, use those cat-like reflects and hulk-like strength to disable/disarm rather than struggle on the slippery slide of the gun.

If within arms reach of somebody pointing a gun at you and you try to draw, you would have to be some Quick Draw McGraw to not end up dead. I had dinner with an active Navy SEAL in Panama City one night. He invited me to a training area the next day. Gave me a compact paint ball training pistol with instructions to apply pressure to the trigger while pointing at him and to shoot him if he tried to move in any way. He didn't always get the pistol away from me (after around the first 10 times) but I never got close to shooting him. We reversed roles and even with his extensive training, I never got the gun from him but I also never got shot either. There physically just isn't enough time for the brain to get the trigger finger to move before any reasonably fast slap from the defenders hand. There is a children's game where one holds his hands palms together in front of him and the opponent has his hands on his hips. The opponent tries to slap the defenders hand while the defender tries to move his hands up or down to avoid the slap. It is nearly impossible to avoid getting your hands slapped. I surely don't want to ever be in the situation where I have a gun pointing at me, but if so, I would want for him to either be far enough away to move to cover or close enough to slap his aim away to affect retreat of defense of some sort. With the SEAL, even knowing he was going to take my gun away, he did fairly easily at first even though I was larger than he was (but definitely not as fit). With the typical druggie, mugger or welfare case, I would feel confident I could best him or her if close enough. A bit of training with a fake gun would go a long way.

Safetychain; this is what I was talking about the .1 second human response time in my post (42). The brain just can't tell the finger to squeeze in time to keep the gun from being moved out of position.

Keep this in mind if you ever "intervene", do NOT get within one or two steps of a bad guy that you have a legal right to draw on, but not a legal right to fire on (e.g. in some states, you can't shoot an unarmed home intruder, etc).

If you get too close they can contest the gun.

And remember (something I teach in CCL class) - a gun fired from the hip is 100% effective and accurate on a human sized target out to 3 yards, no aiming required! You don't have to draw and point the gun, just draw & shoot from the hip. You WILL hit the target all the way out to about 3 yards. Period. With training you can do it reliably out to 7-10 yards.

Close retention (two handed held in close) you can still hit the target easily out to 7 yards, 100% of the time with a minimal amount of practice, and further than that if you train shooting that way.

trent said:

Remember that humans have an average of .1 second response time.

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You have some EXTREMELY fast people where you live.

I regularly run a drill where I have the shooter make ready with the weapon pointed downrange with his finger on the trigger. No target, just fire into the backstop as soon as possible at the beep.

Very few people can get off a shot in less than .20 seconds.

If you can do it in .10, you need to get your name on this reflex test leaderboard:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

.1 second? Yes, incredibly fast.

Reaction time comes up here pretty often, and since no one else has done it, this go-round, here's a test to measure your reaction time. I usually run about .25 second. Give it a try...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/

When I'm talking reaction time I'm talking about "brain receives nerve response, act" - e.g. your hand is being burned, pull it away; or a cup is falling off the table, grab it.

When your adrenaline kicks in (fight or flight), human reaction time will be faster. When you are relaxed (sitting on the couch clicking on a mouse button to play a sheep game on the internet), or doing something that doesn't involve innate twitch reflexes, reaction times will be slower (.25 or higher).

Muscle memory allows for more complex responses in that same period of time, as you've patterned your body to instinctively respond to some specific stimuli - punch is coming in, use appropriate block. Guy pulls back to swing at you, punch first.

Of course people vary from individual to individual - some drugs (pot) and alcohol will definitely slow you (or the attacker) down, other drugs will jack their reflexes up (meth / coke). Lighting conditions and distractions will slow you down as well.

The reason I picked .1 seconds out of the hat is it is about the fastest someone who is trained will be able to respond to any visual stimuli (such as you moving to strike). Assuming you don't telegraph the move, you can easily push a gun aside within that baseline time before the other person can respond - even if you have to take a step (lunge forward) to do it. With a little training you can do this while simultaneously delivering a strike before they can hope to react.

In a CQB class we had to grasp the slide of our pistols and fire off a round, then conduct a tap/rack/assess/bang. This was to simulate a worse case scenario where the BG was close enough to grab your gun and to demonstrate that a round could still be fired.

It didn't hurt (unless you had a compensated pistol and had your hands over the ports) and required very little effort.

One problem........... If you miss grabbing the slide, now what?

Hunter2011 said:

Sometimes though, especially when you live on a farm, and it is one of your previous workers, I highly doubt it that you won't be killed. Nobody wants to be identified...

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I was talking with an anti-gunner the other night on Facebook and that same sort of thing came up.

"Why not just give the robbers your money/car/whatever? Why risk escalating the situation with a gun?"

I explained it as concisely as possible.

"In 2005 I was attacked in my garage by a man with a knife. It was a friend of mine who was drunk; he was apparently suicidal. Anyway out of the blue I'm tackled, on the ground, with a man on top of me, one arm pinned, and his knife comes out of the sheath. I had 20+ years of martial arts training behind me at that point, and I took him out with an elbow strike with my free arm."

"What does that have to do with anything?"

"Sometimes they don't WANT your keys, or your car, or your belongings. Sometimes they simply want to kill you. Or take your things and THEN kill you so there are no witnesses. At that point what do you do? Do YOU have 20+ years of martial arts to fall back on? No. Do YOU have a concealed handgun on you to defend yourself with? No. I'm alive today BECAUSE I had options.

You, sir, have no options. So when your day comes, you will die, and the rest of the world will move on, forgetting you and your drivel that you spew trying to disarm everyone else, with this idealistic peace and harmony that quite frankly does NOT exist in the natural world. You can go to your grave crying "can't we all just get along???". I will go to my grave saying "I survived everything life through at me except the hands of time, which I couldn't turn back."