SA Revolvers for CCW

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I can't help but think that, beyond familiarity, CONFIDENCE in one's ability with their carry gun counts for a lot. If it goes:

Mindset
Skillset
Tools

Then, the confident mindset may well outweigh the limited tool. I know I wouldn't want to square off against my dad (whose first, and still favorite, pistol was an original Blackhawk) with ANYTHING if he had his SA.


Larry
 
I believe that if I carry a single action, I will be outgunned by more modern firearm designs. That takes nothing away from those far more skilled than I with the single action. If we were betting on a gunfight though, I think I know which shooter I would bet on, based only on the knowledge of what they were shooting. The limitations or advantages come from the gun...sometimes from how it runs but mostly its design.
 
jeepnic

Put it this way:

If you get into a shooting incident and survive, and as a consequence end up in court, that sawed-off snubby on the evidence table is going to cause some interesting comments... :D
 
The limitations or advantages come from the gun...sometimes from how it runs but mostly its design.
IMHO, the most important limitations exist between the ears.

Nothing is faster from leather to the first shot than a Colt SAA or similar. He who makes the first hit is more likely to be the one to walk away. If I didn't think I was at an advantage with a single action against your average wannabe gangsta Memphis thug, I would just stay home. Methinks too many place too much importance on their ability to empty a large capacity magazine.


I can't help but think that, beyond familiarity, CONFIDENCE in one's ability with their carry gun counts for a lot. If it goes:

Mindset
Skillset
Tools
Bingo!
 
God forbid you get shot in an arm or have an arm incapacitated during an altercation, your Single Action is now going to be a lot slower as you try to thumb the hammer back under real stress

To the contrary. The Single Action Revolver is especially designed for one handed shooting from the back of a running horse. You can speed up your shots by installing a lower hammer such as a Ruger Super Blackhawk on a Vaquero/Blackhawk.

Semi-Autos require less training and have higher capacities than most revolvers.

How many revolvers have safeties to operate before the gun can be fired?

If you choose to carry the SA revolver, then it certainly makes sense to be exceptionally proficient with it. Such shooters are few and far between

You are running with the wrong crowd. There are scores of Cowboy Action Shooters and Cowboy Mounted Shooters that shoot single action revolvers very fast and accurately.

The single action revolver gives up reload... The conclusion of police and court records, analysis of gun fights, decades of training--as passed to many thousands of students across this country by many trainers--is to carry at least one full reload.

I read this comment a lot and wonder where the documentation of the actual number of times in civilian gunfights that a reload was needed is.

Carrying one full reload is easy. People who refuse to do so are not making rational decisions for responsible carry.

This is merely your opinion not support by any documentation of number of times civilians have to reload in a actual gunfight.

The single action revolver is a gun that can be effective for personal defense. It has limitations that even the best handgunners in the world see.

Every handgun has limitations. Semi-automatics are the worst due to learning to operate manual safeties, clearing jams and using a proper grip to avoid “limp wristing.” A single action revolver does not have these limitations.

Single-Six41Spl3_zpsd502de24.gif
 
IMHO, the most important limitations exist between the ears.

Your opinion doesn't belie that the need to cock a hammer is an inherent limitation in contrast to more modern carry actions.

As far as fast draw, don't be thinking about open carry western style, down on the thigh, because that is not how people in most States carry. Otherwise, a typical SAA has a longer barrel to clear the holster. I suppose that allows more time to cock a hammer, but meanwhile the other guy is shooting at you. And let's not be comparing experts with everyday Joe shooters. Exceptions can be tiresome and do not dismiss a point.
 
I wouldn't carry a single action revolver as a defensive weapon, but I respect anybody who takes the time and puts in the effort to become proficient enough to feel comfortable doing it.
 
Your opinion doesn't belie that the need to cock a hammer is an inherent limitation in contrast to more modern carry actions.
If you can flick the safety off on a 1911, you can cock an SA's hammer. I guess it is too much to ask of some folks that they have to do more than just slap the trigger. :rolleyes:


As far as fast draw, don't be thinking about open carry western style, down on the thigh, because that is not how people in most States carry.
This is almost too ignorant a statement to even respond to. I don't know how much time you've actually spent carrying a concealed single action or how many hours you've spent in draw/fire training but it's apparently close to zero. I carry my sixgun concealed, in a high ride pancake, oh expert who has never done it. Lordy, what would we do without the plethora of folks who have never done something but know all about how it should and should not be done. :rolleyes:
 
if you can flick the safety off on a 1911, you can cock an sa's hammer. I guess it is too much to ask of some folks that they have to do more than just slap the trigger. :rolleyes:



This is almost too ignorant a statement to even respond to. I don't know how much time you've actually spent carrying a concealed single action or how many hours you've spent in draw/fire training but it's apparently close to zero. I carry my sixgun concealed, in a high ride pancake, oh expert who has never done it. Lordy, what would we do without the plethora of folks who have never done something but know all about how it should and should not be done. :rolleyes:
bingo !!!
 
Obviously, I can't and won't try to change anyone's mind on such an issue. But I could never recommend a single action for concealed carry. IMHO, they are too slow to get into action (a low slung holster, cowboy style, is NOT concealed), the hammer is large and too easily gets hung up on clothing, the hammer is easy to slip from the thumb, they are generally slow to reload, and, again generally, bulky and "print" easily.

The fact is that many single action fans simply cannot conceive of carrying anything except their favorite type of gun, and its drawbacks are of no concern. I wish them luck if they ever have to use the gun.

Jim
 
I wish them luck if they ever have to use the gun.

I’m not too worried. I watch for such things and it’s been many decades since I heard or read of anyone actually getting into a shooting situation while carrying a six-shooter. Two reasons I think. First, very few people are still carrying them and represent a small subset of the total number of folks that actively CCW. Second, the total number of people who CCW within the general population and get involved in a shootings aren’t that many either. The laws of probability are way over on the sixgun guys side, so it’s highly likely they won’t get into trouble.
 
This is a hornet's nest type of post. The kind I usually get into and it get's closed down, but not this time. I believe that if a man has enough confidence in what he is capable of doing, even under pressure, well then it's none of my business to tell him what I think he is best at.
It's one of those questions that can turn out either way. If a man is that good with a single action revolver, to where he believes he is better with it than a double action pistol, then who am I to tell him which he should carry?
The reload is the only thing I find at fault, maybe because I grew up with revolvers, and one thing you don't want to do is run out of ammo in the midst of a shootout.
I would never forgive myself for that one.
But all others aside carry what you feel confident with. I usually would limit myself to at least 2-3 bullets per perp per incident, so if there were two guys you are at bare minimum. Not allowing for missed shots, which those FBI reports will show happen about 30-50% of the time.
I just like a ten round minimum for my carry, I use the PM9, with 2 spare mags, which I can easily reload in 2 to 3 seconds, "faster if I am in rhythm" and they are on a table. But from where they are kept, I am able to pull 2 out while still shooting the first one. Keeping a third in hand if necessary. it's more about having them should you go into extra innings. If I were out in the woods, I would take a different gun, like a glock 26or Hi cap CZ type with 2 mags. Or relative scenario, a CZ with 19 rounds and 1 spare, gives you almost a box of bullets.
Is it likely to happen, no, but could it, yes. I look at it like using cover fire to escape, no one is going to step in front of a wall of lead, with you shooting 20-30 rounds at them.
I see my role as trying to get away from there, not shoot it out with a few crazies, unless there was no choice.
Nothing says you have a duty to stay and fight, unless you had skin in the game. If my family was safe, my intent would be getting my ass out of there, not trying to save the world.
But each of these is different, if say, my leaving would get a person killed, I would have to evaluate it at the time, and probably stay and fight, "if I had ammo".
Saving someone's life is a wonderful thing, but the downside is if you become paralyzed in the process, are you even ever going to even see them again.
 
This is almost too ignorant a statement to even respond to. I don't know how much time you've actually spent carrying a concealed single action or how many hours you've spent in draw/fire training but it's apparently close to zero. I carry my sixgun concealed, in a high ride pancake, oh expert who has never done it. Lordy, what would we do without the plethora of folks who have never done something but know all about how it should and should not be done.

The constant mocking is a trademark of the bully.
 
Citing how fast a Cowboy Action shooter can run their gun is totally moot, since they're shooting mouse fart loads using both hands.

Show me how fast they can go with full power defense ammo.

How fast could the regular guy draw and fire 3 shots on a 5 yd target....one handed?
 
Lordy. Here we go again. If your packing a single action sixgun you are better armed than the majority of American citizens in their day to day buisness. Coming from a guy who prefers double action revolvers and re loads. Remember, people often carry mace or a stun gun or just a pocket knife. Heck I knew some one who carried a screw driver for defense. Back in the day my dad carried a thick piece of wire. To smash into the head of a would be assailant. And what if during one of these mass shootings just one of our single action revolver bravos were around. I'd say that in most of those situations they would have been an asset. Could you win every conceivable gun fight. NO. But if you enjoy shooting it and practice? Go for it. Don't like six then an impossible reload? Than pack a smaller backup.
 
Citing how fast a Cowboy Action shooter can run their gun is totally moot, since they're shooting mouse fart loads using both hands.

Show me how fast they can go with full power defense ammo.

How fast could the regular guy draw and fire 3 shots on a 5 yd target....one handed?

Recoil on a Single action 357mag is no where near as bad as a j frame or for or any of the small 380s or 9mm.

So my guess is better than most. The softest shooting 9mm I ever carried was the Beretta PX4 which is known for light recoil with its rotating barrel. It still kicked harder than any of my single actions.

So again, 3 shots at 5 yards most full power 357mag SA shooters will out shine anyone else shooting your typical conceal carry guns in speed and accuracy. Much quicker to get the soft recoil SA back on target.

Oh and a cowboy load in 44 or 45 packs enough punch to be just fine for SD
 
And Bon Munden either but...... I've seen a lot of Cowboy Action shooters that are awful fast and accurate.

That said, I hardly ever carry a SA for defense, but would hardly feel unsafe armed with one.
So the cowboy action guys are fast with there 10 grains of pyrodex and 20 grains cream of wheat loads shooting at Evil Roy at 5 yards? Or there .45 colt 250 grain wadcutters screaming out at 350 FPS?

There are tons of excellent SA revolver shooters out there who are blistering fast, but shooting mouse phart loads at targets a few steps away isn't a reliable indication of FIGHTING skill with a single action sixgun. Cowboy action shooting gets a lot of people off, but I'm not one of them. Somebody skilled at that game doesn't neccesarily corespond with being a truly good gunfighter.

SASS really is about perputation of the Hollywood myth of the Old West, NOT the realities, and frankly it doesn't do the TRUE shootists of the Old West any credit at all.

Now, with lots of proper training in realistic self defense scenarios, I believe the single action revolver is just as effective as anything else on the shelf today. It's not the tool that is so important, it's the skill of the shooter using that tool.

I'd bet Wyatt Earp and Doc Holiday would probably agree with everything I just wrote. JMHO.

YMMV.
 
Recoil on a Single action 357mag is no where near as bad as a j frame or for or any of the small 380s or 9mm.

So my guess is better than most. The softest shooting 9mm I ever carried was the Beretta PX4 which is known for light recoil with its rotating barrel. It still kicked harder than any of my single actions.

So again, 3 shots at 5 yards most full power 357mag SA shooters will out shine anyone else shooting your typical conceal carry guns in speed and accuracy. Much quicker to get the soft recoil SA back on target.

Oh and a cowboy load in 44 or 45 packs enough punch to be just fine for SD
No offense, but I'm not interested in your guesses, I'm interested in actual times.

CraigC says no gun is faster for the first shot than a single action. Is that based on the Fast Draw competitions using fast draw rigs with the gun hand hovering a millimeter away from the gun butt?? I wish he'd cite an actual time using a concealed carry holster, hands at sides start.

I've carried single actions for defense in the woods, as I like the power they provide. But I'm under no illusions of doing any rapid fire with the loads I use.
 
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A single action is not both safe and ready like a DA

A single action is safe with the hammer down. It requires 2 actions to fire (cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger). If one cocks the hammer when trouble is noted, then one is going into a stressful situation with a hair trigger (the short trigger pull of a single action at about 5 lbs. is a hair trigger in a life or death situation). The longer DA trigger is so much safer in a stressful situation as we all have strength we don't know about when the situation arises. But, I' ll use what ever I have available when the situation warrants. Sometimes a handgun is perfect, sometimes a shotgun is perfect and more often then not, a long gun trumps everything.
 
Citing how fast a Cowboy Action shooter can run their gun is totally moot, since they're shooting mouse fart loads using both hands.

It doesn't matter. The fundamentals of shooting are the same for mouse and full power loads.

Show me how fast they can go with full power defense ammo.

For folks unfamiliar with the single action do not realize that gun is suppose to rotate up in the hand when fired which brings the hammer closer to the thumb for fast cocking when firing one handed. A two handed hold gives the shooter the advantage of using the off hand thumb so he doesn’t have to break his grip. A Super Blackhawk or Bisley style hammer speeds things up even more.

How fast could the regular guy draw and fire 3 shots on a 5 yd target....one handed?

This is a generic comment that is applied to all types of handguns. The answer is as Cooldill says is solely dependent of the skill of the shooter and I will add the amount of practice they put into it.

First of all CAS is a speed shooting sport.

Second a shooter that regularly shoots thousands of rounds a year in CAS and Mounted Shooting under the clock is going to be much more proficient at hitting the target than someone that shoots a few hundred occasionally.

I wish he'd cite an actual time using a concealed carry holster, hands at dudes start. I've carried single actions for defense in the woods, as I like the power they provide. But I'm under no illusions of doing any rapid fire with the loads I use.

This is no different than practicing with reduced power reloads such as with the 38 Special and then carrying 357 Magnums for S.D. in a double action revolvers.
 
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It doesn't matter. The fundamentals of shooting are the same for mouse and full power loads.

More kick is going to cause more muzzle rise and will rotate the grip in the hand more. This will slow things down. I don't see the CAS shooters using full loads ever.

For folks unfamiliar with the single action do not realize that gun is suppose to rotate up in the hand when fired which brings the hammer closer to the thumb for fast cocking when firing one handed.

Fast-ER cocking doesn't necessarily translate to fast cocking/shooting.

A two handed hold gives the shooter the advantage of using the off hand thumb so he doesn’t have to break his grip. A Super Blackhawk or Bisley style hammer speeds things up even more.

We should define "fast" and compare platforms using equivalent loads.

This is a generic comment that is applied to all types of handguns. The answer is as Cooldill says is solely dependent of the skill of the shooter and I will add the amount of practice they put into it.

Yet, I read time and again how "no gun is faster to the first shot than a single action!" The ONLY source for this is the fast draw speed records that use extremely specialized guns, holsters and technique. This is what RealGun was referring to in response to CraigC's unsubstantiated assertion. I'd like to see how 10 skilled SA guys compare with 10 skilled DA revolver or semi-auto guys for speed to the first shot using concealable holsters, hands at sides start.
 
No offense but if you don't want guesses as answers then don't ask questions that require guesses as answers.

You asked how fast SA shooters would be in 3 shots at 5 yards. We that will very just like it will the guy carrying a pocket 380 and the guy carrying a glock 19. No way to test everyone so a guess is all you can get.






No offense, but I'm not interested in your guesses, I'm interested in actual times.

CraigC says no gun is faster for the first shot than a single action. Is that based on the Fast Draw competitions using fast draw rigs with the gun hand hovering a millimeter away from the gun butt?? I wish he'd cite an actual time using a concealed carry holster, hands at dudes start.

I've carried single actions for defense in the woods, as I like the power they provide. But I'm under no illusions of doing any rapid fire with the loads I use.
 
More kick is going to cause more muzzle rise and will rotate the grip in the hand more. This will slow things down. I don't see the CAS shooters using full loads ever.

I already addressed one and two handed techniques when using full power loads in Post #17.

Fast-ER cocking doesn't necessarily translate to fast cocking/shooting.

Huh?? Well ok. No more than pulling the trigger faster means hitting the target more often.

We should define "fast" and compare platforms using equivalent loads.

Equivalent to what? Commercial standards for that particular caliber or as the same as other calibers?

Regardless it isn’t possible as no two shooters have the same set of skills.

Yet, I read time and again how "no gun is faster to the first shot than a single action!"

Not from me. What I will say is the more you practice with one gun the faster you will be regardless of the type.

I'd like to see how 10 skilled SA guys compare with 10 skilled DA revolver or semi-auto guys for speed to the first shot using concealable holsters, hands at sides start.

Well in the past I have put on Cowboys vs. Cops shooting matches for Toys for Tots. The Cops that came are motivated gun guys and darn good shots. We divided the stages up equally between CAS style shooting and those that the Cops use in their training. Most of the Cops used semi-autos (and mostly Glocks).

Results are the same everytime. The Cowboys win and the Cops come away with a new found respect for the Old Thumbbuster.
 
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