I consider testing using the KT equiv of using a snubnose, no way the magtech is going to reach anywhere near its posted velocity. Gold Dots are great for KT and I carry them in my Tomcat. They are not fast but soft and well designed. If the Magtech +P reaches 1000fps or more in the bersa barrell and expands its a good round, if not then its not. Whats the velocity out of the KT barrell.
Asking Bersa Thunder 380 owners
- Thread starter eyz
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M2 Carbine
member
.380 ammo test Apr 15, 05
I don’t have a Bersa so the test gun was a Colt Government Model with a 3 ¼ inch barrel.
The distance was about 5 yards.
The target was a single 1 gallon water jug with a box of rags behind to trap the bullet.
The test material was heavy socks. The medium heavy white sports kind. Worn out, but still pretty thick.
So, using 2 socks meant 4 layers of material.
DRY socks were used for every shot.
The ammo tested was,
Cor Bon 90gr JHP
MagTech Guardian Gold +P 85gr JHP
Federal Hydro Shock (2 that I happened to have laying around)
Reloads, 95gr Remington JHP
The test setup.
The ammo tested.
The Cor Bon surprised me that it didn't expand at all (through 4 layers of cloth) and the Federal suprised me that it expanded so well.
The Cor Bon not expanding after going through the 4 layers of cotton could be a plus.
The unexpanded bullets passed almost all the way through the "capture box". ( something that never happens with expanded bullets)
The last round tested was sticking out the back of the box wrapped in rags (socks).
I don’t have a Bersa so the test gun was a Colt Government Model with a 3 ¼ inch barrel.
The distance was about 5 yards.
The target was a single 1 gallon water jug with a box of rags behind to trap the bullet.
The test material was heavy socks. The medium heavy white sports kind. Worn out, but still pretty thick.
So, using 2 socks meant 4 layers of material.
DRY socks were used for every shot.
The ammo tested was,
Cor Bon 90gr JHP
MagTech Guardian Gold +P 85gr JHP
Federal Hydro Shock (2 that I happened to have laying around)
Reloads, 95gr Remington JHP
The test setup.
The ammo tested.
The Cor Bon surprised me that it didn't expand at all (through 4 layers of cloth) and the Federal suprised me that it expanded so well.
The Cor Bon not expanding after going through the 4 layers of cotton could be a plus.
The unexpanded bullets passed almost all the way through the "capture box". ( something that never happens with expanded bullets)
The last round tested was sticking out the back of the box wrapped in rags (socks).
EYZ: You said "If the Magtech +P reaches 1000fps or more in the bersa barrell and expands its a good round, if not then its not. Whats the velocity out of the KT barrell."
-That is exactly the point! The MagTech does not expand!
The Gold Dot out of the KT barrel reaches (if I remember correctly) around 900 or so fps.
I was just reading a post at the stoppingpower.net group.
The post is from a resident of Brazil.
He says that the MagTech round has a terrible reputation in his country! You can see the thread and read the post from Ricardo at__
http://forums.stoppingpower.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3525&SearchTerms=magtech,380
The more negative comments I read about the MagTech's performance, the more I wonder why you seem to be completely sold on a cartridge that has a lot of negative reports and nothing that I can find that indicate it will out perform or even equal some other 380 cartridges!
I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just trying to understand your thinking here!
M2: Shooting into water jugs is interesting and useful in that it does us show what happens to bullets when they expand. But when it comes to simulating human tissue, water is not even close! Many bullets that expand in water will never expand in gelatin or human tissue!
-That is exactly the point! The MagTech does not expand!
The Gold Dot out of the KT barrel reaches (if I remember correctly) around 900 or so fps.
I was just reading a post at the stoppingpower.net group.
The post is from a resident of Brazil.
He says that the MagTech round has a terrible reputation in his country! You can see the thread and read the post from Ricardo at__
http://forums.stoppingpower.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3525&SearchTerms=magtech,380
The more negative comments I read about the MagTech's performance, the more I wonder why you seem to be completely sold on a cartridge that has a lot of negative reports and nothing that I can find that indicate it will out perform or even equal some other 380 cartridges!
I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just trying to understand your thinking here!
M2: Shooting into water jugs is interesting and useful in that it does us show what happens to bullets when they expand. But when it comes to simulating human tissue, water is not even close! Many bullets that expand in water will never expand in gelatin or human tissue!
good post
looks like the magtech performed equal to the others and better than corbon.
my point is this 1082 fps wound channel VS 900 fps wound channel??? what am I missing? i've owned the colt also in the past and its not the same but closer. 38 velocity vs remington 357 mag(the lite load)velocity. hmmm i should choose a bullet that goes 200fps slower because it expanded a hare more.
looks like the magtech performed equal to the others and better than corbon.
my point is this 1082 fps wound channel VS 900 fps wound channel??? what am I missing? i've owned the colt also in the past and its not the same but closer. 38 velocity vs remington 357 mag(the lite load)velocity. hmmm i should choose a bullet that goes 200fps slower because it expanded a hare more.
M2 Carbine
member
"kokapelli
M2: Shooting into water jugs is interesting and useful in that it does us show what happens to bullets when they expand. But when it comes to simulating human tissue, water is not even close! Many bullets that expand in water will never expand in gelatin or human tissue!"
True, but if a bullet DOESN'T expand in water I wouldn't trust it to reliably expand as a defense round.
I realise the information I gain from this kind of testing is very limited but so is the information limited from shooting into gelatin.
The human body is not a blob of gelatin.
Testing and knowing the effects of the limitations of your tests on the results is a whole lot better than just blindly guessing what will happen.
M2: Shooting into water jugs is interesting and useful in that it does us show what happens to bullets when they expand. But when it comes to simulating human tissue, water is not even close! Many bullets that expand in water will never expand in gelatin or human tissue!"
True, but if a bullet DOESN'T expand in water I wouldn't trust it to reliably expand as a defense round.
I realise the information I gain from this kind of testing is very limited but so is the information limited from shooting into gelatin.
The human body is not a blob of gelatin.
Testing and knowing the effects of the limitations of your tests on the results is a whole lot better than just blindly guessing what will happen.
horge
Member
Stephen:
Thanks for letting me off the hook
------
Guys,
We're friends here, right?
There is no simple correlation between medium (gel, water, pulp)
density/resistance and JHP expansion. Bullet design and velocity
are just as critical:
Muzzle velocity is nice, but bullet mass determines how it withstands
deceleration on entering soft media. The stronger the JHP jacketing,
the more velocity and/or medium density/resistance will be required
to expand. The dimensions of the HP hollow and the sharpness of
the lip around it are factors too.
Generally, clothing retards HP expansion because the hollow gets
plugged up by loose fiber, rather than denser tissue, water or gel.
However, there are exceptions due to bullet design:
The Remington Golden Saber often suffers no expansion loss
due to clothing, perhaps because the hollow is so big and the
lip so sharp (probably shearing the fabric quickly and allowing it to
settle at the bottom of the hollow, and leaving room for enough
tissue/gel/water to come in ....who knows?).
There's really no conclusive evidence to indict MagTech GG's.
Even if we're to presume the worst...
A non-expanding JHP is still a bullet, and last I heard,
FMJ is pretty lethal if you put it in the right places.
If a shooter has confidence in HIS/HER performance using
.380 MagTech Guardian Gold 85gr JHP, then that confidence is
a plus that outweighs almost any flaws the cartridge MAY have.
More confidence means a steadier hand and a steadier mind.
All the better to get WHATEVER bullets you prefer on target,
and whatever you hold dear on to safety.
Train hard, Fight harder.
and stay on the High Road
Thanks for letting me off the hook
------
Guys,
We're friends here, right?
There is no simple correlation between medium (gel, water, pulp)
density/resistance and JHP expansion. Bullet design and velocity
are just as critical:
Muzzle velocity is nice, but bullet mass determines how it withstands
deceleration on entering soft media. The stronger the JHP jacketing,
the more velocity and/or medium density/resistance will be required
to expand. The dimensions of the HP hollow and the sharpness of
the lip around it are factors too.
Generally, clothing retards HP expansion because the hollow gets
plugged up by loose fiber, rather than denser tissue, water or gel.
However, there are exceptions due to bullet design:
The Remington Golden Saber often suffers no expansion loss
due to clothing, perhaps because the hollow is so big and the
lip so sharp (probably shearing the fabric quickly and allowing it to
settle at the bottom of the hollow, and leaving room for enough
tissue/gel/water to come in ....who knows?).
There's really no conclusive evidence to indict MagTech GG's.
Even if we're to presume the worst...
A non-expanding JHP is still a bullet, and last I heard,
FMJ is pretty lethal if you put it in the right places.
If a shooter has confidence in HIS/HER performance using
.380 MagTech Guardian Gold 85gr JHP, then that confidence is
a plus that outweighs almost any flaws the cartridge MAY have.
More confidence means a steadier hand and a steadier mind.
All the better to get WHATEVER bullets you prefer on target,
and whatever you hold dear on to safety.
Train hard, Fight harder.
and stay on the High Road
M2 Carbine
member
eyz,
I just set up the chronograph and here's what she said.
Colt, 3 1/4 inch barrel.
Cor Bon------1002 & 1034 = 1034 fps av.
My reloads--963 & 971 = 967 fps av.
MagTech-----943 & 934 = 938 fps av.
Kel Tec P3AT, 2 1/2 inch barrel
Cor Bon------910 & 913 = 911 fps av.
My reloads--903 & 892 = 898 fps av.
MagTech-----883 & 901 = 892 fps av.
Silver Bear---831 & 804 = 817 fps av.
In both guns the Cor Bon is a noticeable more powerful round.
As horge says above there's too many variables to hope to pick out the one perfect bullet that does everything best.
I just set up the chronograph and here's what she said.
Colt, 3 1/4 inch barrel.
Cor Bon------1002 & 1034 = 1034 fps av.
My reloads--963 & 971 = 967 fps av.
MagTech-----943 & 934 = 938 fps av.
Kel Tec P3AT, 2 1/2 inch barrel
Cor Bon------910 & 913 = 911 fps av.
My reloads--903 & 892 = 898 fps av.
MagTech-----883 & 901 = 892 fps av.
Silver Bear---831 & 804 = 817 fps av.
In both guns the Cor Bon is a noticeable more powerful round.
As horge says above there's too many variables to hope to pick out the one perfect bullet that does everything best.
Horge: As usual, very well articulated. Just t about what I would like to say.
I just want to clear up one thing though. Facts are facts. The MagTech is not 200fps faster then the Gold Dot!
If you go to Horge's website and check his ballistics page, you will find that the lighter 85 gr MagTech bullet reached 1048fps from a 4.5" barrel and did not expand but rather performed like a fmj!
The heavier 90 gr Gold Dot bullet fired from a shorter 3.75" barrel, reached 990 fps. That is only 58 fps slower then the MagTech and from a shorter barrel at that!
The Gold Dot expanded 66% when shot into bare gelatin and 38% through clothed gelatin.
Some one in an earlier post said that, there are no +P rounds in 380 and Based on these ballistics I think this pretty much confirms that! I think MagTech is misrepresenting their round if, they call it +P! "Just The Facts!"
Jerry, who,carries the Gold Dot in his P-3AT and Bersa thunder!
I just want to clear up one thing though. Facts are facts. The MagTech is not 200fps faster then the Gold Dot!
If you go to Horge's website and check his ballistics page, you will find that the lighter 85 gr MagTech bullet reached 1048fps from a 4.5" barrel and did not expand but rather performed like a fmj!
The heavier 90 gr Gold Dot bullet fired from a shorter 3.75" barrel, reached 990 fps. That is only 58 fps slower then the MagTech and from a shorter barrel at that!
The Gold Dot expanded 66% when shot into bare gelatin and 38% through clothed gelatin.
Some one in an earlier post said that, there are no +P rounds in 380 and Based on these ballistics I think this pretty much confirms that! I think MagTech is misrepresenting their round if, they call it +P! "Just The Facts!"
Jerry, who,carries the Gold Dot in his P-3AT and Bersa thunder!
targershooter
member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2004
- Messages
- 8
Hey Alll!!!!
I just got a bersa 380 auto, had it for almost a week and love the hell out of it. Took it night shooting on the 3rd day of having it, also love the muzzle blast. The noise level is not that loud, but it does its job. If anybody has any ideas or help for a newbie with a 380 auto, drop me a message and give me some advice
targershooter
I just got a bersa 380 auto, had it for almost a week and love the hell out of it. Took it night shooting on the 3rd day of having it, also love the muzzle blast. The noise level is not that loud, but it does its job. If anybody has any ideas or help for a newbie with a 380 auto, drop me a message and give me some advice
targershooter
cidirkona
Member
They're great little things, that's for sure. For the Bersa's, try not to drop the slide with the safety on, it'll start to wear underneath the slide a little too much and that lever being down can take a good chunk out of your thumb!
Also, don't bother with the cheap hollowpoints. Mine finally had a failure to feed (nose stuck on ramp) at 630 rounds (632 on it right now) with the bear-on-the-box cheap hollow-points after 98 rounds of not being cleaned in a 2 hour shooting session.
Cheap ammo tends to be a bit sparky in these things too (for me at least), which kinda sucks for the desert, but is kinda cool lookin' at the range! I have no idea why this is, but probably has more to do with cheap ammo and short barrel than the FireStorm itself.
A friend of mine the first time out shooting ever was making 3" groups at 7 yards with this thing, it's definately controlable.
-Colin
Also, don't bother with the cheap hollowpoints. Mine finally had a failure to feed (nose stuck on ramp) at 630 rounds (632 on it right now) with the bear-on-the-box cheap hollow-points after 98 rounds of not being cleaned in a 2 hour shooting session.
Cheap ammo tends to be a bit sparky in these things too (for me at least), which kinda sucks for the desert, but is kinda cool lookin' at the range! I have no idea why this is, but probably has more to do with cheap ammo and short barrel than the FireStorm itself.
A friend of mine the first time out shooting ever was making 3" groups at 7 yards with this thing, it's definately controlable.
-Colin
Targershooter: Go to Horge's Bersa web page at___
http://www.geocities.com/bersa_thunder/
http://www.geocities.com/bersa_thunder/
targershooter
member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2004
- Messages
- 8
bersa 380 info
Hey All!!!
Could anybody tell me where i could get a 7 or 10 rnd mag for the bersa 380 in east tn. Any help would be very nice and helpfull,
targershooter
Hey All!!!
Could anybody tell me where i could get a 7 or 10 rnd mag for the bersa 380 in east tn. Any help would be very nice and helpfull,
targershooter
cidirkona
Member
cidirkon: "www.fourfourmag.com has a good selection for GOOD prices."
You can buy the same mag at CDNN for $2.00 less! Link below.
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/95thun3807rd.html
You can buy the same mag at CDNN for $2.00 less! Link below.
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/95thun3807rd.html
cidirkona
Member
I've seen those but wasn't positive they'd fit or were the same...
-Colin
-Colin
cidirkona
Member
Cool, thanks for the info!!
How much were those finger extensions?
-Colin
How much were those finger extensions?
-Colin
Colin, they were $3.00 each + shipping when I ordered them. They may be more now. The finger extensions were less then $1.00 not long ago, then the guys at the Kel-Tec NG found out that the Bersa finger extension would fit the P-32 and P-3AT mags perfectly. The KT'ers ordered lots of them and the price started going up!
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
$3 each was my mark a few weeks ago ... well worth getting tho for Bersa and KT's.
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