So what's going on here

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Cowboy2

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I've not seen this before. Happened today while trying out a new load in a 1917. specs are 51grs H4350, 175gr SMKs, CCI 200 primers, LC case. Not a hot load by any means. These bullets had been pulled (as gently as was possible) using an RCBS collet puller a day or two before. I will note that I was also using Sierra pro hunter 150s pulled at the same time, and didn't see any swirls, just the 175s. Range was about 40yds, give or take a few.

My worry is that the puller is damaging the bullets and they are spinning apart, assuming that's a lead swirl. Which is a problem, because the Win LR primers I'd been using for a whole lot of match ammo are splitting at the edges (as discussed by others in a recent thread), so I've got several hundred rounds to pull. If the puller is wrecking the bullets, well, I'm out a lot more than just a bad case of primers.

Thoughts? I'm kinda hoping to hear its got nothing to do with the bullets, but I doubt that's what I'll hear. I don't mind buying a Hornady puller if its a solution, I just really don't want to have to use a kinetic one to tear down 300+ rounds.
 

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It's possible (I said possible) since your load is too light and there is a lot of soot on the bullet and it's being deposited on the paper as it goes through. If there is a lot of soot on the bullet it would look like that going through the paper and leave that pattern. (good news maybe?)

Hodgdon lists a starting weight of 55.0gr of H4350 with a 175gr bullet, your load of 51.0gr is light. I'm not sure 7% under the starting charge weight is enough to do that but it's a lot easier to try upping the charge weight to 55.0gr than pulling 300 rounds by hand...
 
Read your manual. Like ArchAngelCD says, you're under minimum by 4 grains.
There's nothing a collet puller can do that will cause soot on the target. The sides of the bullet don't matter anyway. Only the base matters.
 
That heavy soot indicates a low charge, this creates an inefficient burn.

Are you running these across a chrony?

There are other powders that will perform much better for reduced loads.

If your puller was doing significant damage to the bullets, you might see some frag holes in the paper, but not likely swirl sooting.

Bump your charge up, I would at least take it up to published minimum.

GS
 
It is a middling load in my Sierra book, but now that I'm cross-referencing against Lee and the Hodgdon site, its pretty low (or too low) everywhere else I'm looking. And looking further, some of their stuff is noticeably higher than I'm seeing elsewhere. Now I'm wondering how much faith to put in that book.

Well, thanks all. I'll go put together some more rounds and try again tomorrow.
 
I'm glad you posted your question and provided that picture.

This "older" dog just learned something new, again! I've never seen that before in my 40+ years of loading my own, and wouldn't have known what was causing it. Mostly because I tend to loaded hotter, not colder.

Thanks for posting.
 
If you're getting smoking down the case neck with those, that would be a definite sign that the load is too light because the case did not seal against the chamber, due to low pressure.


NCsmitty
 
+1

It has nothing to do with bullets coming apart at low velocity.

I've seen the same thing with light loads in a .32-20 Colt revolver with too light loads.

It's soot from unburned powder shaking/swirling off the bullet at target impact.

rc
 
1917- lead swirl on target - Soot??

I would look at the barrel first as the cause of the problem. Each bullet type will react differently. Jacket thickness & bearing surface of the bullet also comes into play. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/424740_50_gr_ZMax_tumbling_from_a_1_9_barrel_.html What i said
The bullets hitting sideways, i only seen one time. Caused by undersize bullets or larger than normal barrel groove diameter. The short bearing surface of the 50 gr bullet is letting gas get past on firing when pressure is very high. Also, when using a spitzer type bullet, exposed lead nose, watch for a lead swirl around the bullet hole. It may be seen on a white paper target. As the gas gets past the bullet, the tip melts. The air friction keeps it liquid till bullet hits target at 100 yards. My keyhole was 243 win. with a Rem 70 gr match bullet (discontinued) years ago, in a Win M70 1966 year model. 3 bullets hit sideways for me. The 80gr spitzers left the lead smear on target. Gun would not group till after 10 fouling shots were fired.
Click to expand...
A rough throat/leade can damage a bullet, resulting in bullets not even reaching the target. Berger bullet failure test http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?49336-Berger-bullet-failure-test
 
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Like a meteor flying down the range with the bullet looking like a little dirt ball of debris. How far away was the target? Was the case covered with the same debris.

I will never be able to duplicate that image.

F. Guffey
 
Replies to questions/comments in no particular order:

-I was about 35-40yds away, just testing if they would group worth a darn. (Actually, they grouped pretty well. After taking the picture I shot the rest (4-5) and most of what you see there was just a ragged hole)

-The case neck is sooty, but the body is not.

-The barrel hasn't showed any problems with other loads, aside from angrily casting bullets about in a shotgun pattern when it finds a combination it really doesn't like.

-I didn't chronograph them, wanted to see how they shot first.

-The target is stapled to an old campaign sign screwed onto a board/fencepost frame (thick, sturdy stuff that lasts a long time and of which we have a lot thanks to a relative's long career).

Given how interested some of you are with it, I may try to repeat it and see if I can get more pictures.
 
I wouldn't call that a screw up. From Cowboys posts it sounds like he has a pretty accurate load. It's just an interesting result from a low pressure load.

A lot of our members seem to play with these reduced loads and I have to admit, it's getting more and more interesting to me also.

Sounds like a lot of fun.
 
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