Simple powder measures.. handgun brass ?

Pancho said:

MEHavey, the question stated in another way, "grain" is used as a volume increment in muzzleloading and I think only in muzzleloading. True or False?

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I think Duelist said it best in post #17 above

Pancho said:

MEHavey, the question stated in another way, "grain" is used as a volume increment in muzzleloading and I think only in muzzleloading. True or False?

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OK, let me try....

All black powder VOLUME measures are based on the WEIGHT that they will hold. That is why they can be labeled in "grains".

There is no volumetric measurement of "grains". The use of the term "grains" on the volumetric measuring tools is simply a convenience granted by the consistency of black powder over the years it has been made.

Unlike smokeless powders black powder is highly consistent in the volume to weight from batch to batch. Another more accurate way to say "volume to weight" is "density". And black powder has a very consistent density for a given size grade from batch to batch and maker to maker.

So we make up or buy volume measures that are labeled in "grains" even though "grains" is a measurement of weight.

This is based on our trusting the makers to continue to make black powder and BP substitutes with a consistent density so the measures will continue to throw the right charge weight.

That help?

I'm also surprised that no one has yet posted this link to a chart of commonly found brass casings and how much volume they have.

http://kwk.us/cases.html

jstein650 said:

Bear with me, but after much searching, I have reached my breaking point. So I will post my question to THR without further dithering: I'm here with my new Pietta 1858 New Army .44 .. without any kind of volumetric measure. I have a digital reloading scale. I have Pyrodex P.
Some time recently I saw that some fellow had measured and listed a good number of common handgun brass and the amount of blackpowder and BP eq's they would hold.
Can I not just weigh out what charge I'm looking for, then find something that will hold that volume? From what I've been able to gather, the answer somehow seems to be 'no'.
I'm looking to throw 28, 30, 32 gr (eq.) charges.
Which brings me to another question... Pyrodex-P is about 78% the density of real BP, right?.. So, for example, 30 grains of BP would equal 23.4 gr. of Pyrodex-P, right?...
I realize the whole BP thing is a lot more quick-n-dirty than precision benchrest rifle loading & shooting and such, but I'd like a few tips from those in the game.. Thanks.

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Yes you can.

Take an empty primed case, and cut it down to size, till it holds the volume you require. I wouldn't cut, maybe use a bench grinder.

Then you can take something for a handle, a four inch nail, and braze it to the cut down shell.

Home made powder measure.

Brass on a typical grinding wheel gets clogged in the grit. Same issue with abrasive discs in something like a Dremel.

A basic hacksaw with a fine 32TPI blade used gently and a fine tooth metal file work far better. A slick trick is to drill a casing size hole in a block of wood then split the hole along the grain with a saw cut. The resulting sized jaws hold the casing really well with no danger of crushing while cutting.

But this doesn't answer the question. He doesn't need something just to hold the powder. He's looking for some way to use casings he already has to use as a know measurement. He has no measure to go by at present. So if he cuts down a casing he doesn't know how much powder it holds and he's still in the dark.

Years ago I duplicated a brass powder measure that was/is available on the market. I made AT LEAST 50 or so for friends. My suggestion is to purchase a similar measure and go from there. I'll root around and if I find another I'll send it to you. Weight /Grains? who knows BUT I haven't heard any complaints.

I posed my original post #23 and #25 not out of ignorance (I've been muzzleloading and studying the history of it since 1964) but to give thought about the fact that our forefathers couldn't weigh out charges in the field they could only use a volume container, only gunsmiths could fool with measuring charges by weight and then they related that weighted charge to a volume sized container that would hold that charge.
It's an interesting occurrence in time that has endured nearly 800 years.

A .38 Special case full to the top of BP or Pyrodex topped with a .457 lead ball and some grease makes a fine load in a Ruger Old Army. Not a particularly heavy load, from what I can remember -- so it ought to work fine in your Pietta .44 (might take a slightly different size ball, I dunno)

BCRider said:

Brass on a typical grinding wheel gets clogged in the grit. Same issue with abrasive discs in something like a Dremel.

A basic hacksaw with a fine 32TPI blade used gently and a fine tooth metal file work far better. A slick trick is to drill a casing size hole in a block of wood then split the hole along the grain with a saw cut. The resulting sized jaws hold the casing really well with no danger of crushing while cutting.

But this doesn't answer the question. He doesn't need something just to hold the powder. He's looking for some way to use casings he already has to use as a know measurement. He has no measure to go by at present. So if he cuts down a casing he doesn't know how much powder it holds and he's still in the dark.

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In the initial post, he said he had an electronic scale.

Powder should be measured by weight, even black powder.

He than has to take a case full of black powder and weigh it. and if it's too much, trim the case down, fill it, measure.

Repeat till they weight is right.

Ah, yes, he's got a scale. But he's working with Pyrodex. He's looking for the black powder equivalent for known casings so he can start with a known volume and then weigh that and work backwards to find what the weight would be for a black powder equivalent of some reduced charge.

Once he's got all that worked out then sure, he can trim casings to suit because he'll have a conversion factor for the weight of Pyrodex that simulates a given charge of proper black powder.

I think weighing or using a volume measure both work fine for black powder. When loading a cap and ball revolver most importantly you need to know what your starting load should be. In my opinion that be a 38sp case without a wad or filler in Pietta NMA and a max load would be a 7.62x39 case full of Powder. More than likely using a 45acp or 357 case are going to work out best for you. Back when i shot Pyrodex P after i worked up a load i charged my cylinder with a Lee Perfect Measure. I would charge the cylinder seat the wads with a bic pen put the cylinder back on the gun and seat the balls. I think whats hard when guys are first starting out shooting cap and ball revolvers is knowing where to start. My adjustable pistol powder measure measures light set at 25gr it thoughts a 20gr charge. So starting with cartage cases is not such a bad idea. A adjustable measure might come in handy for fine tuning a load.

gold is also measured in grains and troy oz as well. 7000gr =1 lb
CC